Marc TWW Friday Live's "change my mind" challenge

[Jean [Fr]]

This thread is started in reply to Marc TWW Friday Live's "change my mind" challenge (40' to 49').

Like hand tools people have narrow ideas about power tools, people who are not aware about digital fabrications says a lot falsehoods by misunderstanding. This is a friendly attempt to give people a window open to the essence of digital fabrication in general.

This is not any personal opinion, just facts. What Marc said during the live makes me jump out of my chair. Sorry Marc, I don't want him to stop making videos, indeed, and I hope he was just kidding. But I'm afraid Marc's definitely wrong. And I will show why. I don't blame Marc because he's an appreciated woodworking expert, and nobody can perform in every subject. I took time to see what I missed from the start of the 3D printing argumentation to be sure to answer right. According to the average knowledge, we have a long way to go, sorry.

I want to say I thought exactly like Marc until I get my first 3D printer, even if I was an early CNC router enthusiast. I could not imagine how wrong I was.
My thought, was fulfilled with a lot of presuppositions :
- Plastic is cheap, fragile and ugly
- 3D printers are expensive tools just able to print cubic and ugly nuclear green picatchus
- 3D printing takes weeks to print too small parts
Shamefully, I did not understood the genius of 3D printing by the past.

1. Understand 3D printing paradox.
That's the start point why 3D printing detractors are wrong. That's mostly because a lot of 3D printers owners prints stupid things with it. Please read carefully because this is the major point. There's a 3D paradox theory which is curiously known since the seventies: 3D printing has a range of utilization which is unbeatable by any other production process, definitely. Out of this range, other methods outperform the 3D printing. Easy isn’t it ? Here is the 3D printing paradox: what takes time, is expensive to do, needs a lot of different tools, need a lot of skills, with traditional methods (substractive fabrication), is  highly interesting to be done by additive fabrication: simpler, faster, cheaper, etc. On the oposite, what's simple to be done with substractive manufacturing is a no sense to be done by additive manufacturing.

Examples : A control pannel is just a flat material with holes. You can't beat substractive manufacturing. As Marc said, this is too fast to be done with a drill and a jigsaw. On the opposite, captive concentric bowls are extremely difficult to be done, even for a skilled wood-turner, while its child's play to be 3D printed. If you need to make a very technical part, a complex organic shape, precise mecanical interactions, complex assembly, embedded shapes : you can spend years and a lot of money to do it with traditional ways. Some can’t be done by any other methods anyways. Don’t waste your time, print it in few hours.

First superpower of 3D printing : it makes impossible or complex parts easy.

2. A totally new paradigm
We all learned in school there’s one way for the world to go : growth & trade. Could this be wrong ? Trade works because you get in shops what you cannot make yourself, right ? The woodworker is skilled enough to make is own furniture. The furniture shop is useless for him. What if you don’t need any skill to make stuff ? Well, any shop should be useless then. Actually, you can find anything mostly 3D printable on sharing websites like thingiverse.com : Download it, print it, done. My experience : since I get my first 3D printer I did not buy much hardware as I did by the past. 5 to 10 % must be the absolute maximum. Most of my tool accessories are now 3D printed, and some of my tools too, like my router lift. I do not really need to find in a shop an exotic metric to imperial hose adapter, I just have to design my own and print it. Why would I spend hours sourcing it, then days to recieve it, when I can design and print mine in few hours, for a small percentage of the price ? You got it : when you own a 3D printer, you get a personal factory in a box, simple as that. Of course, you can’t print everything (at least in 2019), and everything is not worth printing anyways. But make no mistake : most can be 3D printed, even unexpected ones like fully working pumps or electric motors.

So the fact is : as long as you don’t mostly need shops and you can produce mostly anything by yourself with no skills, all we still learn to our students about growth & trade is questionable. As 3D printed parts are mostly free and/or open source and/or for personal use, patent protection is no more the rule. Anyone can share a better alternative of a $99.99 Festool accessory you can print for pennies. And yes, as there’s a measurable growing impact on sales, major companies consider this pretty seriously. Millions of 3D printers are sold every year. Some of mine works 60 hours per week since 2013 (I’m a late owner).

Second superpower of 3D printing : Autonomy
Third superpower of 3D printing : Open Source

3. Buy for the garbage
During your life, how many tools or objects did you throw away because you broke or loose a necessary part of it, hm ? In my riding, a lot ! Sometimes recent objects, by the way. Manufacturers have no interest in lasting products. They provide spare parts for some times or not at all. Duct tape lovers can fix stuff sometimes. Most of us have already spent hours to try to fix out things with hazardous craft parts. Well, your personal 3D mini factory can produce strong and good looking spare parts. You can design the genuine part with a twist to fix the known issue. Actually, the list of my long lasting fixed parts increase as time goes by. I’m able to repair more frequently than by the past. That’s financially attractive indeed, and good for the planet.

That’s the fourth superpower of 3D printing : planned obsolescence killer

4. Presuppositions about 3D printing and CNC fabrication in general that are wrong.

A. 3D printers are small volume, so it’s useless.
The two presuppositions are wrong. Entry 3D printers have a small build volume that’s true, but there’s 3D printers able to build family homes, it it big enough ? Then gentlemen, size does not matter at all. Definitely. Uh, at least for CNC. People need to understand what is CNC production. Another superpower of CNC is repeatability : you can produce perfectly matching parts even decades later. Smaller machines are more productive than big ones for many reasons : first, they can work simultaneously, like a multiple core computer, so you get the result faster. That’s why I own a small farm of small 3D printers. Second, a bunch of 3D printers is much versatile on production. You can spare various parts on various printers, or a portion of a big part on most of the printers. A single man can manage a lot of CNC machines, while he can only work one power tool at a time. Different processes, different rules. Last, a bunch of small machines are less expensive than a big one.

B. About CNC machines producing templates.

Sorry for the hurt, but this is the most stupid idea ever ! This is a huge misunderstanding of CNC workflow. Once and for all, CNC is just about no more template ever. As long as you have a CNC, why would you need any template ? Remember the repeatability superpower : make directly your part on the CNC. Once again, different processes, different rules. Don’t think power tool process with CNC machining. Think directly in CNC mode. When you think into a CNC workflow, you make ready to assembly parts in once. You focus on design, assembly and finishing. The CNC manage to produce a perfect part better than you can do afler years of skill training. OK, we take apart the joy of doing by yourself, that’s another subject. If you want to manufacture the part by yourself, don’t get a CNC, and also sell away your power tools, simple as that. It’s not the subject at all, each one finds the way to enjoy making : hand tools, power tools, hybrid or computer controlled. Making templates with a CNC is like marking dovetail prior to use a leith jig : a full waste of time.

C. About plastic, issues and 3D printing quality.

The wood is obviously a much noble material than plastic. I guess we’re all wood lovers here. That’s two different things, each brilliant at different purpose. But make no mistake about it, like any materials, plastic is unbeatable for a bunch of applications, like wood is, like steel or stone are. Robust transparent parts needs to be done in plastic. There’s actually a lot of various 3D printing materials with their own perks, from flexible to insulating or conductive properties. Thermoplastics are inexpensive, and if managed properly can be recycled to make new parts or new filament to make new parts. So is plastic a valuable material ? Well, absolutely, as long as there’s perks to use it instead of another material.

You have probably seen ugly 3D prints from cheap Chinese kits (mostly useless trinkets). Cheap Chinese kits was well known about endless issues. Well, with all due respect to its detractors, this is no more the case. Actually you can get an assembled 3D printer which makes perfect parts just out of the box, for about $150 (the Creality Ender3, is actually a good example). You won’t spend any time in fixing or understanding no more. The 3D printing market is very mature nowadays with performing 3D printers at reasonable price.

5. About skills, soul, tradition and fine craftmanship

A frequent argument against CNC manufacturing is the machine do for you, so you don’t learn, you have no fun, you loose knowledge and tradition, and last, the final product have no soul. Sounds like the ultimate words have been said, aren’t they ? Well, I have no choice than to reply point by point. A full 3D printer user need other skills, nore related to design and engineering, so like woodworking, there’s different levels in woodworking. Believe me or not, as I’m a CNC owner for over 15 years, I can say that the beginer who have no understanding of wood grain should expect to live nightmares with his first cuts. If you don’t understand wood, feed and speed, the CNC will be no help at all. CNC joinery requires to be aware of traditional techniques, and brings you to another level too, where you can program no glue hidden snap in joinery or complex tenoning which are comparable to japanese joinery. Tradition is another subject, as you can make period replicas on CNC machines. So what about soul ? Well, to me the soul of a masterpiece is not based on technology but into intention. Technically you can make a very complex fine machining mostly impossible for the hand of a master, with no soul in it, or a very simple machining with true visual emotion in the masterpiece. The soul is brought by the creator, not by the tool. Some creators have a linear experiencing process, but this is still not related to technology. All these arguments can be true if you’re not a technology guy, but are not valid for everybody. There will be CNC master craftmen for sure.

6. Conclusion.

It is now obvious that 3D printing is a pretty interesting tool to own, as long as your mind is open enough to technology, of course. It’s much about your personal taste than about the interest of the technology. The die is cast. Almost all of the 3d printers owners did not go back. 3D printing have the potential to make substancial changes to your life and your workflow. If you’re able to exploit the technology, your 3D printer will be one of your most used tool. Definitely.

CNC manufacturing in general is a relatively new technology. It requires to completely change our habits in the workshop, from the workflow to the joinery. A lot of people are not ready for a paradigm change, and who can blame them for that ? But almost all of their arguments are not valid, except the want or need ones. Marc, if you read this and I managed to enlarge your appreciation of 3D printing, please keep on with the videos
 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Jean [Fr]
Intro to bring the context back for better understanding. A title more explicit and more friendly (my mistake).

[Chestnut]

I don't do woodworking to be a production shop, I do it to get out from behind a screen and doing things with my hands. CNC and 3d printing have a draw to me but pardon my opinion but forget CAD, i hate it. 10 hours a day 5 days a week of it is enough.

For one of a kind items there is a lot more learning and scrap. I don't need replicas of anything honestly. Every curved apron or item is all unique. You separate them by 5" and they are close enough that you can't tell. I can knock most of the curved and complex items faster than it'd take to power up a computer, load the tool path in the CNC and hit go. I also have a lot less waste. Too many woodworkers get bent out of shape with their parts needing to be exact replicas. The honest truth is it's not even remotely necessary. I took a 1/2" gouge out of a curved apron on one side. I cut the curve back on one side just to see if i could save it and after i was done you can't tell the difference.

That said I've watched what Frank Howarth does with his CNC and if i didn't work behind a computer 10 hours a day for my job and i had the space, I'd have one.

[wtnhighlander]

@Jean [Fr], you make plenty of valid points, but I wonder what purpose it serves to debate the validity of CNC tools? You like them, use them. Don't like them? Don't use them! 

Personally, I am in the camp of @Chestnut. I work wood to get away from computers and relax, so CNC tools are not for me. I thought about a CNC engraver for lettering and such, but even that mundane work is more satisfying to me when done by hand.

[Coop]

I agree but that’s only my corner and I don’t disagree with the guy in the opposing one. Whatever turns you on and makes your day. 

[Jean [Fr]]

Hi everyone,

9 hours ago, Chris208 said:

Why was my reply deleted?

I really don't know. But I got it by mail, you said "This is an incredibly loooong post complaining about what somebody said on the internet. im not reading all (any) of that. Good day." Feel free to read or not. No problem Chris.

As you did not read, you could not notice this is not a complain about what somebody said on the internet at all, even if Marc is not anybody, but a respected opinion leader. Long story (reading) short: It's just about dissemination of clichés by people who are not aware about CNC, and have a false opinion. No complain, how can they know ? Because I'm an experienced CNC owner, I share the essence of these technologies which differs a lot from clichés. And I had to be precise for people to eventually understand, that's the difference between explanations and complains. I whish you could learn some things. Maybe If my English was better, I could make it shorter ?

7 hours ago, wtnhighlander said:

@Jean [Fr], you make plenty of valid points, but I wonder what purpose it serves to debate the validity of CNC tools? You like them, use them. Don't like them? Don't use them! 

Personally, I am in the camp of @Chestnut. I work wood to get away from computers and relax, so CNC tools are not for me. I thought about a CNC engraver for lettering and such, but even that mundane work is more satisfying to me when done by hand.

I'm afraid I did not made myself fully understandable. Sorry about that. It's not about validity of CNC tools, it just to bust clichés which are not true about computer controlled technologies, including 3D printing. It's not about you should or should not use them, but about understanding the differences between hybrid woodworking and CNC workflow which differs a lot. If you're a hybrid woodworker you don't have the keys to understand the CNC workflow. Even if CNC routing is substractive manufacturing too, the CNC workflow makes most of other tools useless. With a CNC, you don't even need a flat surface at startup, because you can machine both sides. Most of CNC users on Youtube or magazines includes CNC into their hybrid woodworking workflow, including Frank Howarth, which is using only a small percentage of CNC (super)power(s). It's doing with CNC what you allready do with non CNC tools. That's where people do not totally get it, and that's exactly your CNC as engraver example.

Please note than 3D printing, as a full versatile mini factory goes one huge step further.

I understand your last argument about satisfaction to do it by hand, I considered that in my first post. This is the only valid argument against CNC workflow : what you like or enjoy doing. And this is out of clichés, it's anyone's own preferences. My quote is about the actual CNC workflow essence, not if it's valid to use it for you or not.

9 hours ago, Chestnut said:

I don't do woodworking to be a production shop, I do it to get out from behind a screen and doing things with my hands. CNC and 3d printing have a draw to me but pardon my opinion but forget CAD, i hate it. 10 hours a day 5 days a week of it is enough.

For one of a kind items there is a lot more learning and scrap. I don't need replicas of anything honestly. Every curved apron or item is all unique. You separate them by 5" and they are close enough that you can't tell. I can knock most of the curved and complex items faster than it'd take to power up a computer, load the tool path in the CNC and hit go. I also have a lot less waste. Too many woodworkers get bent out of shape with their parts needing to be exact replicas. The honest truth is it's not even remotely necessary. I took a 1/2" gouge out of a curved apron on one side. I cut the curve back on one side just to see if i could save it and after i was done you can't tell the difference.

That said I've watched what Frank Howarth does with his CNC and if i didn't work behind a computer 10 hours a day for my job and i had the space, I'd have one.

I agree Chestnut, its about liking or disliking the technology, the only valid argument, as said above.

About unique/replicas production, that's not a valid argument as you can do unique things on a CNC, of course. About the speed, well, as I said in my first post, not everything's worth to be made with CNC technology. Based on my experience with CNC workflow, I can make on a week end projects that took me several weeks with a hybrid woodworking workflow. I'm afraid that's, on average situations, substantially a much faster process. Exceptions are related to very simple parts, like a block of wood. As complexity grows, like curves or tricky joinery, CNC takes quickly advantages. A common mistake is people basing their opinion from hobby machines, like the x-carve, which is not a very capable machine. A serious CNC router which take 2" passes at 800in.mn is definitely not beatable by traditional ways, even for simple parts.

Should you get a CNC router when you'll be retired from computer day job work ? Well, you're the guy to answer this question. To me, it's probably not a good idea if you stay into a hybrid woodworking workflow, because the CNC would just catch dust in a corner of the shop most of the time. But if you're aware and ready to organize your workflow around CNC machines, it's probably the best idea actually. I had to sell most of my powertools and my workshop is pretty different actually and surprisingly clean.

7 hours ago, K Cooper said:

I agree but that’s only my corner and I don’t disagree with the guy in the opposing one. Whatever turns you on and makes your day. 

Yep : definitely the only valid argument is what people personally like or dislike.

[Chestnut]

4 hours ago, Jean [Fr] said:

About unique/replicas production, that's not a valid argument as you can do unique things on a CNC, of course. About the speed, well, as I said in my first post, not everything's worth to be made with CNC technology. Based on my experience with CNC workflow, I can make on a week end projects that took me several weeks with a hybrid woodworking workflow. I'm afraid that's, on average situations, substantially a much faster process. Exceptions are related to very simple parts, like a block of wood. As complexity grows, like curves or tricky joinery, CNC takes quickly advantages. A common mistake is people basing their opinion from hobby machines, like the x-carve, which is not a very capable machine. A serious CNC router which take 2" passes at 800in.mn is definitely not beatable by traditional ways, even for simple parts.

Though this is pointless, it makes an interesting conversation, I hope that you are able to discuss with out taking offense to what I've said. I've honestly almost deleted everything I've written 5 times because there is no positive outcome. Both sides have their opinions and they appear to be fanatical about them. I hope that you can read this with out it seeming like I'm trying to change your opinion. I"m not. If anything I'm trying to convey the opinions of the other side so that in the future you don't look at those that are opposed to CNC as being stubborn curmudgeons. People have different motivations, complicated motivations, and they may not be the best at conveying those complicated motivations and therefore get misunderstood. People also have different experience levels and talent levels that leave an unequal playing field. Sooo...

I agree to a point. The machine will always beat me if it's set up before I start. From rough board to simple curve though I'm going to win every time, so respectfully i disagree. I've done production drafting for a long time and it's not as simple as just thinking about a design and it magically appears on the computer. A well thought out design takes time to draft then have the tool paths created. That doesn't just magically happen. For one of a kind parts that's a LOT of computer work that you are just glossing over. Even if it's 15 min for a simple arch in the bottom of an apron. Using hand tools I'd be done and on to the next part.

Their big benefit is in complicated shapes. The problem is I don't like complicated shapes. Heavily ornamented furniture seems cheap and garish to me. Maybe it's because I'm subconsciously aware that it was just done with a machine? I also haven't seen much work off a CNC that doesn't scream machine made. Most of the designs are very fake and lack that organic feel to them, this is probably lack of experience. The thing that I've seen little of, is a designer that takes a CNC and does something with it that they can't to any other way.

The other trouble with digitally created stuff is if you put two identical objects next to each other, one hand made the other CNC/3D printed. I'd hail the hand made object for it's skill of craftsman ship. The other object would get a "hey that's cool" and I'd probably forget about it. This is apparent everywhere. That one of a kind misprinted babe Ruth rookie card is going to be infinitely  more valuable than the millions of copies made my cracker jack. An original Van gough could be printed millions of times but the original will ALWAYS get more attention. There is a HUGE value to the digitally created stuff in getting useful items to as many people as possible but again I'm not a production shop. I like that my furniture isn't sitting in every furniture store across the world nor could it ever. Does that make me pretentious, for sure it does and I'm ok with that.

As far as most hobby workers are concerned a 3D printer or CNC like you are talking about is completely unattainable. The space and cost for both machine and software puts it out of the reach of most hobby woodworkers. I probably have above average income compared to most and I can't justify the cost nor space. This is most of Marc's point that he probably failed to convey. Most of his viewers want to learn woodworking. There is a small minority that are vocal about CNC but they are unfortunately a minority. He provides what his viewers want to learn. If that some day matures to CNC and 3d printing I'm sure he'd have one in his shop. The catch 22 on that is the people that want to learn it are going other places to learn it and are unlikely to demand it from Marc. I think his comments weren't eloquently chosen, but he has addressed this question MANY times.

[JohnG]

Apparently Marc made a comment about CNC/3D printing during a Friday Live episode, but OP didn’t paraphrase it for us. So yes, the thread it is out of context for many people, myself included. 

[Jean [Fr]]

52 minutes ago, Tpt life said:

I feel like I missed an overstated comment where someone expressed an opinion without expressly saying “this is my opinion.” I have no problem with the views expressed above, but question their value in this forum space, or for anyone who missed the original comments referenced. 

 

44 minutes ago, JohnG said:

Apparently Marc made a comment about CNC/3D printing during a Friday Live episode, but OP didn’t paraphrase it for us. So yes, the thread it is out of context for many people, myself included. 

Sorry guys if the topic is of no interest for both of you.
In his friday live, Marc challenged to make him change his mind about 3D printing. This is an friendly attempt.
 

3 hours ago, Chestnut said:

Though this is pointless, it makes an interesting conversation, I hope that you are able to discuss with out taking offense to what I've said.

Thanks for your reply Chestnut,

I don't try to convince you, I have no problem with different opinions. I just enlight what is misleading. To be valid, an argument needs to be true whatever the angle or the people. As people share their opinions, this is always rich conversations, and I believe we both understand each other. I hope my English does not sounds to drastic or rude to anybody, because that's not what I want to say at all. I wonder if the title of this topic does not seems too aggressive. If it does, I appologize, that's not intentional. I just try to be understandable with precise words, because it's the way frenchies do. Dogs don't make cats...

The topic was mostly about 3D printing and it strays a bit to CNC routing. Never mind, it's wouldtalkonline, right ? I understood mostly all of you said, even if I had to do a little documentation about "stubborn curmudgeons". You have a personal taste perfectly defined, and there's nothing much to say about that except it's fine. That can't be discussed because everyone have its own taste.  You value cratftmanship which is highly valuable, for sure. I do too, even if it's not the same way. We'll talk about that later.

Taste or value is not the angle of my argumentation. Neither the learning argument or the money argument. We need to leave all that apart because there's no relationship with the technology. There's expensive pannel saws, precious hand planes and even small stack of systainers that cost much more than a capable CNC router. Any technique can be teached and learned, even about machines. Value and taste are highly subjective. Some will value design, others aged stuff, others materials, it's just a question of taste, of personal values. It's subject to mistakes too. According to your taste, you can find a piece marvelous at first sight and the second later loose any interest about it since you noticed it's not crafted as you wish. For somebody else, the perception will be the opposite. Taste, value, learning, money are not valid arguments to talk about a technology. 

Your last message contains a lot of presuppositions usually said against technology. I don't blame you, it's pretty common, and this is not related to CNC, as you can find the same arguments translated about other technologies. My gran pa hated power tools and used the same arguments you use about CNC. You can do a poor job or a marvelous job with any technology. Definitely. Doing by hand does not guarantee to do a quality or an emotional piece. A masterpiece requires first a good idea, second a perfect realization. The tool used does not matter. If the masterpiece is perfectly executed, you can't guess which tool is used. The tool is the way to get from your idea to the piece. As you master the tool used, it does not matter if it's a hand tool, a power tool or a CNC tool.

CNC have a lot of superpowers, like repeatability and precision. This is great if you have to produce by numbers, but CNC is not related about mass production, it's just a workflow. Like any tool, you use it the way you need. You can make your living turning furniture feets by hand, and make them by numbers. I believe, the woodturner's soul should dilute since the first pieces. I do not produce similar pieces very often. Most of the time, I've got an idea I want to materialize. I do a bunch of prototypes before getting what I want.

That leads us to the "time in front of the computer" argument. You're right, you need to spend some time in front of a screen to prepare the CNC machining. I was not born under a CNC. I've made my first furniture piece in 1984. Before CNC was invented, we still needed some time to design a piece and make plans. Even for my CNC production, I spend a good amount of time just sketching. Actually, you can find a lot of woodworkers, like our host, designing with sketchup, even if they don't own a CNC. To me, sketching, then assemble on sketchup, then print some BOM/plans, then making some templates, then do hybrid woodworking, is circuitous. You would probably agree it's more efficient to sketch ideas, then CAD the best one, then machine on CNC. As long as you master the computer tool, CAD/ is not the longest part. The creative process is by far the longest, in my riding.

About Marc, I'm an early follower, I like his style, I like his speeches, his sense of humor and even if the old man I am don't have much to learn about woodworking, his videos are always inspiring. I'm highly thankful for that. He always reply with patience, and have an overall good attitude. I hope the title does not sounds too hard, this is not what I wanted to do. This topic is definitely not to blame or to complain. I wish there's no misunderstanding about this. I just felt uncomfortable hearing Marc with a partial vision of that technology. In what Marc said there's some presuppositions that are not totally true about 3D printing. I don't blame him, he's not a user/owner, he only have a distant appreciation of the essence of 3D printing. I just wanted to bring a different point of view, from someone which is a long time builder/owner/user of these technologies. I wish this give people a window into digital tools. Including Marc, because I appreciate him without knowing him. Actually, CNC in general and 3D printing is pretty mature. You can't find a better time to try those technologies, if you're a tech guy of course.

To end this too long reply, I agree with you about poor examples of CNC use. The technology is much mature thant CNC users themselves. Most of CNC owners uses CNC to feel capable to do things they're not skilled enough to to another way. That's an argument about CNC, which makes things easy in a way. That's why you saw screaming machine made stuff. Actually, there's simple designs perfectly executed by CNC, but the technology used is not obvious. There's also obvious CNC machined pieces that are interesting indeed. All depends of the talent and the skill of the guy behind the tool, handtool, powertool or CNC. I'm not sure to be right on a CNC or not CNC survey :

Not CNC

CNC

Not CNC, and CNC below :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jean [Fr]]

26 minutes ago, Tpt life said:

You missed my point. Let me clarify. 

Ok, I'm in the wrong forum area, I got it. I'm really sorry. Maybe a moderator will be kind enough to move this topic to the right place ?

Do you think it's necessary to edit my first message to bring some light on the topic ?

Something like "in friday live september 6th 2019, from 40'09" Marc said various things about CNC and 3D printing which are based on non CNC user commonplaces. This (I wish) friendly topic is an attempt to give people a window into the true essence of digital fabrication, from the CNC owner side, and a way to share opinions about CNC in general."

Would it be appropriated ?

[Jean [Fr]]

I understand, no problem. Any advice to context the topic is welcome.

[wtnhighlander]

5 hours ago, Jean [Fr] said:

Ok, I'm in the wrong forum area, I got it. I'm really sorry. Maybe a moderator will be kind enough to move this topic to the right place ?

Do you think it's necessary to edit my first message to bring some light on the topic ?

Something like "in friday live september 6th 2019, from 40'09" Marc said various things about CNC and 3D printing which are based on non CNC user commonplaces. This (I wish) friendly topic is an attempt to give people a window into the true essence of digital fabrication, from the CNC owner side, and a way to share opinions about CNC in general."

Would it be appropriated ?

Yes, the edit you mentioned would actually help very much.

[Chet]

The Moderators have moved this thread for those that want to continue the discussion.  In the process we have edited the thread to include just the posts that are on topic.  We understand that there were differences of opinions but hopefully from this point on it will get back to discussing the pros and cons of CNC in the woodworking world.

[Jean [Fr]]

Thank you Chet, this is fair, and greatly appreciated.

I edited the title and wrote few introduction words.

[Jean [Fr]]

5 woodworking stuff that are worth 3D printing.

I would like to point out few things. The 3D printing time is not a hard fact. It must be compared to the transportation to and from the specialized store, or the online store shipping time. Please note the 3D printing time is not time consuming unlike building a jig/tool by yourself. Usually, the 3D printed stuff I need for my build is printed during the previous night or during other manual tasks like rough cuts or so. The overall precision of a standard 3D printer is <0.01"

I did not spent much time looking forward to the best examples, but just valid ones. Printing time calculation is based on one of my average 3D printers. Make your own opinion.

1. Corner Radius Router Template

Source : https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2438336

CAD/CAM time : 0

Cost : $0.40

Challenger : Woodpeeker's $40

Printing time : 45'

Pro : precision <0.01" ; print the needed radius only ; durable

Cons : 3d printed

 

2. MFT clamping system.

Source : https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2049103

CAD/CAM time : 4 hours (my time)

Cost : $3,7 for 2 pairs (6cs)

Challenger : unavailable on the market, (nearest, Festool's MFT-ST Clamps $125, but are taller)

Printing time : 4 hours

Pro : fast operation, durable, very low profile

Cons : 3d printed

 

3.Kerfmaker

 

 

Source : https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1345031

CAD/CAM time : 0

Cost : $2,8 (filament) + <$1 hardware

Challenger : Bridge City $50

Printing time : 2:45'

Pro : precise, durable
Cons : 3d printed

4.Bosch Battery Adapter

 

 

Source : https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2007996

CAD/CAM time : 0

Cost : $3,3 (filament) + <$1 hardware

Challenger : not available

Printing time : 4:22'
Pro : 100% hack, makes brands compatible, durable
Cons : 3d printed

5. MPCNC (mostly 3D printed CNC)

Source : https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:724999
CAD/CAM time : 0
Cost : $40 (approx. 2 spools of filament) or about $320 overall (printed parts, hardware, electronics) - the kit sold by the inventor is more expensive.
Challenger : any commercial CNC, starting at $500
Printing time : about 36h
Pro : CNC on budget, downloadable for free, Scalable, DIY with learning purpose
Cons : hobby CNC machine, 3d printed

[Llama]

1 hour ago, Jean [Fr] said:

3.Kerfmaker

I'll get called out for being a fan boy about BCTW... but I don't care... 

I bought a 3D printed one to see how good it was and well... it's not great. Aside from the obvious design theft the 3D printed version is simply much bulkier than the original. Perhaps a better 3D printer can make it smaller, but still it doesn't offer the same feel as the original. I think I posted about it here several years ago when they came out with that knockoff. The printed version is comically large.

Without going to far into investigating everything you posted I suspect many things fall into that category.

The radius things are neat if you need something like that, but they aren't hard to make with scrap MDF. Maybe shop made vs 3D printed is a better analysis on simple parts like this as noted in your diatribe.

[drzaius]

39 minutes ago, Llama said:

I'll get called out for being a fan boy about BCTW... but I don't care... 

I bought a 3D printed one to see how good it was and well... it's not great. Aside from the obvious design theft the 3D printed version is simply much bulkier than the original. Perhaps a better 3D printer can make it smaller, but still it doesn't offer the same feel as the original. I think I posted about it here several years ago when they came out with that knockoff. The printed version is comically large.

Without going to far into investigating everything you posted I suspect many things fall into that category.

The radius things are neat if you need something like that, but they aren't hard to make with scrap MDF. Maybe shop made vs 3D printed is a better analysis on simple parts like this as noted in your diatribe.

I actually think the BCTW Kerfmaker is a pretty good bargain. By the time I fart around trying to make one myself that will work as well, I will have burned up many times that in my labor.

[Chestnut]

2 hours ago, Jean [Fr] said:

I would like to point out few things. The 3D printing time is not a hard fact. It must be compared to the transportation to and from the specialized store, or the online store shipping time. Please note the 3D printing time is not time consuming unlike building a jig/tool by yourself. Usually, the 3D printed stuff I need for my build is printed during the previous night or during other manual tasks like rough cuts or so. The overall precision of a standard 3D printer is <0.01"

I think a 3d printer has a lot of capabilities for shop stuff, though I'm not sure that i like leaning heavily on stolen ideas. It to a point is defeating the point of a patent. As pointed out previously some of the specialized tools do represent a bargain especially when you consider the intellectual property that the tool represents.

There are things that i want to make that currently i can't think of a way to make them with standard wood working tools. 3 dimensional molds come to mind for bent lamination. I could certainly eventually get there with my current tools but there are some complex shapes that would be much faster done with a digital method.

I do agree that 3D printing has a HUGE advantage of it being an additive process instead of a subtraction process. This allows for more efficient use of materials. In a space where some hardwoods are extremely expensive utilizing a CNC may cost more in material lost to waste than anything else. Also a good point is that you get to set it and come back when it's done. Your time isn't hands on for the duration of the manufacturing process. Though again it shifts time from shop work to screen work.... nothing wrong with that.

50 minutes ago, Llama said:

I'll get called out for being a fan boy about BCTW... but I don't care... 

I bought a 3D printed one to see how good it was and well... it's not great. Aside from the obvious design theft the 3D printed version is simply much bulkier than the original.

 

9 minutes ago, drzaius said:

I actually think the BCTW Kerfmaker is a pretty good bargain. By the time I fart around trying to make one myself that will work as well, I will have burned up many times that in my labor.

I completely agree I have the KM-2 and it's awesome in use. Have i used it a ton, no, but when i need an exact width dado the thing is fast and fool proof. Also unnecessary i can often nail a 1 off dado pretty fast but batching is where it shines.

[wtnhighlander]

I'd like to toss a bucket of cold water onto the idea that 3D prints or CNC routing jobs a 'set and forget' operations after the design is finalized. By my estimate, at least 20% of such jobs I have personally witnessed, or seen discussed by other makers on the interwebs, fail before completion. Tangled filiment, clogged nozzles, broken bits, all result in extensive waste and lost time if your don't monitor the job continuously. Murphy's law is fully enforced - if you aren't watching, anything that CAN go wrong probably will.

Counterpoint, if I screw up a cut or break a tool, I can recover right away, because I am never going to be leaving my saw or chisel to work on their own. 

[drzaius]

CNC, 3D printing. Nothing evil about them. Everybody is free to decide for themselves whether to and how to use them. I don't understand why some people get in such an uproar about it. There's no need to defend the decision to others.

Personally, I just don't think I'd get the satisfaction out of CNC & printed work that I do out of just using tools to work wood.

One thing that really turns me off of 3D printing is how ugly the finished object looks. Even ones that are well done have that weird 'made of glued together noodles' look to some extent. That doesn't matter for utility stuff, but if you want to make something nice...

[wtnhighlander]

I've seen some really nice and interesting pieces made as 3D prints. Typically requires several finishing and assembly steps after the print, though.

I would love to use one of those machines that 3D prints (sinters) then machine the result into a precision part.

And I'd really love to see a 3D concrete printer  in action, printing a building.  

 

[pkinneb]

39 minutes ago, drzaius said:

CNC, 3D printing. Nothing evil about them. Everybody is free to decide for themselves whether to and how to use them. I don't understand why some people get in such an uproar about it. There's no need to defend the decision to others.

Personally, I just don't think I'd get the satisfaction out of CNC & printed work that I do out of just using tools to work wood...

I agree I have seen some neat things done with both and think if that's your deal go for it and share here because I would love to see what folks come up with. Me personally I have little interest in learning the computer programming to be able to do it. I pretty much align with what Marc said not sure what was offensive about it honestly. 

[difalkner]

I'll confess that I didn't read 100% of the posts above but probably enough to get the flow.  I built a CNC router about 3 years ago and may have posted the build here (I don't recall, sorry).  The main thing I cut with it is Longworth chucks that we sell on Etsy (we've cut almost 200 of them in the last 18 months).  But the CNC is just another tool in the shop to me; I turn it on, cut something, turn it off and move on to the next step.  What's nice about it is the repeatability and accuracy. 

If I can cut something on the bandsaw faster than using Fusion 360 for CAD/CAM and then cutting a piece on the CNC then the bandsaw gets used.  But if that same part is one that I'll need a dozen more of over the next month then the CNC gets the job - it just depends but in the end it's just another tool in the shop.

We don't (yet) have a 3D printer but I have looked at several. A good friend has two 3D printers so I don't need one right now because he'll print anything I need.

The acoustic guitar, and related forms/fixtures/jigs I built last year, could have been helped by the CNC but I only used it for a small portion of cutting the bridge.  The rest was completely by hand and I do a lot of hand work on a fair number of jobs/projects every week.  And actually, the reason I built the CNC is to cut forms, fixtures, jigs, and templates for building acoustic guitars but I have yet to do any of that with the CNC.

When I started woodworking about 45 years ago I used a handsaw.  When I got a circular saw the handsaw gathered dust unless the circular saw couldn't do the job.  When I got a table saw the circular saw got put away.  But it is still used to break down Baltic Birch sheets for the Longworth chucks because it's the best tool for that task in our shop (no room to handle a 5x5 sheet on the table saw).  Cuts that I would have done on the bandsaw a few years ago might today go to the CNC.  They're all just tools and I use what makes sense for the job because I have them and they each handle the job for which they were designed.

My $0.02 

David

 

[Chet]

I could see owning a small CNC if I was really into building styles like Queen Anne furniture.  I like building furniture but don't really like carving so having a CNC do do things like the shells and other appointments on those designs.

[drzaius]

9 hours ago, difalkner said:

I built a CNC router about 3 years ago and may have posted the build here

I think it was on this forum, but I followed your build & it was a real quality project.

[Chestnut]

9 hours ago, difalkner said:

I built a CNC router about 3 years ago and may have posted the build here (I don't recall, sorry). 

You did post, it's been posts like yours on here and Frank Howarth that have turned me from thinking that CNC is complete hog wash to considering it an awesome tool. For items that require precision and accuracy they can't be beat. Kind of deviceive just like the Domino...