Table Saw Help

[Firehawk]

Hi Everyone,

I am trying to decide on a table saw to purchase. My two major requirements are portability (within my 12x20 shop) and an accurate fence. I am trying not to spend over $1500, if my budget was not an issue I would buy a Powermatic 1792002K. From the research I have done the Grizzly G0690 is a major contender, my only concern is finding a good mobile base as I have read reviews of issues with the weight. I have even considered the Powermatic model 64, although have concerns on reviews I have read regarding inaccurate fence and general quality issues. Your comments and advice is appreciated.

[minorhero]

Buy a shop fox heavy duty mobile base.

When I was looking for a base I talked to a bunch of different people and the majority pointed me in the shopfox direction for a good cheap base. I read the reviews on amazon and was reluctant to take the plunge but after talking to some more people I went ahead and ordered it.

The base came in a week later and I was pleasantly surprised by the sturdiness of the construction. The nuts and bolts are not up my usual standards but all they do is put pressure on the steel bars, and after you assemble the base you never touch them again. The base itself easily handles my old unisaw that at the time I was just finishing a restore on. I've had the base now for over 6 months and it moves my saw all over my shop (which is a barn I share space with).

I was even able to turn the metal bars so that the shopfox logo faced in towards the machine and thus folks can't even see it.

Here is a picture of the base setup.

[knotscott]

The G0690 and PM2000 are simply a different class of saw than the PM64a, and are much more robust.  The G0690 and PM2000 are both updated commercial style 3hp cabinet saw with massive yoke style cabinet mounted trunnions, riving knife, good Biese style fence, and a full enclosure.  I realize PM enjoys a "Cadillac" type status, but the PM64a is really just a typical Taiwanese contractor with an outboard motor (which takes up more space), table mounted trunnions (hard to reach), connecting rod arbor carriage, and splayed leg open stand...no riving knife, and hasn't been updated in 10 years or more....it's very similar to the GI50-185M1, former Jet, former Bridgewood, former Grizzly G0576, former Woodtek, and several others.  While the PM64a is a good example of that type of saw with a nice fence, and is capable of most cuts, IMHO it doesn't offer much in today's market for the going price.  If you've got 220v, I'd definitely go with something like the G0690 (or G1023RL), or PM2000 if you've got the budget. If you don't have 220v, I'd pick one of the many updated hybrid saws over the PM64a.  

Here's a look at the trunnion system of the G0690:

Here's a look at the trunnion system (and motor) of a contractor saw of the same style as the PM64a:

[Sac]

Hey Mark, Welcome to the forum. I must say that I am a big fan of Grizzly. And I know a few other people that are as well. If you want to talk about that saw specifically, Come into the chat room at http://thewoodwhisperer.com/live/, and talk to Bucey. He jsut bought the big boy version of that saw, the G0691. He can give you a better review that some others. If you are worried about space, I would get the Griz. Like Knotscott said, the PM64 is going to have the motor that is going to stick out the back. That Griz saw is a 3HP saw, you will most likely never need anything larger than that. On that, you do need to make sure that you have 220V available in you shop. I really dont think that you can go wrong with that saw. Plus it has some cool attachments for it, the router table attachment and the sliding table attachment. For if you ever find yourself with more room.. Good luck, and let us know what you do..

[ChetlovesMer]

At risk of opening up a huge can of worms and going over ground that we've covered many times before, I will suggest looking hard at the "type" of woodworking you want to do. I got into serious woodworking about 25 years ago. But for the last 10-12 years I have been what most people would call a "cabinet maker". Therefore I am a die-hard, dyed in the wool, cabinet saw guy. Anyone seeing any of my posts knows I love my SawStop Professional Cabinet Saw and you'd have to pry it from my cold dead hands. I have even been accused of having some stake in the company or working for them or something. Anyway that saw just really fits the type of work I do.

Having said that, I have recently been trying to become more of what I would call "a woodworker". (Or at least a more well-rounded woodworker.) I have hand planes now, a couple pull saws, even a spoke shave... yeah crazy right? Sometimes I work in my shop for hours now without hearing the beautiful, wonderful, whirl of high powered machinery.

What I'm getting at is I HIGHLY recommend before you buy anything think about what you want to build, maybe it makes more sense to go with a track saw and a band saw, which can be done for about the same cost as a high quality table saw... Heck, maybe even 4 handplanes, 3 pull-saws, a couple of wet stones, and a spokes shave.

There are two things I know for sure when it comes to woodworking:

1 - You can spend a lot of money on tools. No matter if its power-tools or hand-tools.

2 - There's always more than one way to achieve any desired result.

Anyway, if after thinking about all of that, and you still don't know, do what I do.... Ask the wife.

[Firehawk]

At risk of opening up a huge can of worms and going over ground that we've covered many times before, I will suggest looking hard at the "type" of woodworking you want to do. I got into serious woodworking about 25 years ago. But for the last 10-12 years I have been what most people would call a "cabinet maker". Therefore I am a die-hard, dyed in the wool, cabinet saw guy. Anyone seeing any of my posts knows I love my SawStop Professional Cabinet Saw and you'd have to pry it from my cold dead hands. I have even been accused of having some stake in the company or working for them or something. Anyway that saw just really fits the type of work I do.

Having said that, I have recently been trying to become more of what I would call "a woodworker". (Or at least a more well-rounded woodworker.) I have hand planes now, a couple pull saws, even a spoke shave... yeah crazy right? Sometimes I work in my shop for hours now without hearing the beautiful, wonderful, whirl of high powered machinery.

What I'm getting at is I HIGHLY recommend before you buy anything think about what you want to build, maybe it makes more sense to go with a track saw and a band saw, which can be done for about the same cost as a high quality table saw... Heck, maybe even 4 handplanes, 3 pull-saws, a couple of wet stones, and a spokes shave.

There are two things I know for sure when it comes to woodworking:

1 - You can spend a lot of money on tools. No matter if its power-tools or hand-tools.

2 - There's always more than one way to achieve any desired result.

Anyway, if after thinking about all of that, and you still don't know, do what I do.... Ask the wife.

Thanks for all of the replies. Another question, does anyone know if the Shop Fox W1819 and the Grizzly G0690 are the same saw?

[harryangel69]

Thanks for all of the replies. Another question, does anyone know if the Shop Fox W1819 and the Grizzly G0690 are the same saw?

Probably

[SawSucker]

If I had $1500 to spend on a table saw I wouldn't be spending it on a cheap import, I'd be looking for a used American made machine. If your concerned about a mobile base not being able to handle the load, buy a mobile base that is built for that particular saw. As far as what type of saw to buy, I've been a hobbyist woodworker for about 30 years. I bought a new American made Delta Contractor's table saw with a Unifence and Delta mobile base ( 34-445X package ) in 1995 and haven't looked back since. I don't claim to be a fine furniture builder, nor do I want to be one, but I would like to think in all the years that I've been a woodworker that I've made some nice stuff. If you supply the motor with the recommended amount of Amps, and keep a sharp blade in it, there isn't much that a Contractor's saw won't do. Regardless of what some people say, not everyone needs a Cabinet saw, most of those people that recommend Cabinet saws do crosscuts on a table saw rather then with a miter saw, that alone makes me wonder how much experience they truely have in a wood shop. Remember, there are a few tool salesmen that lerk in these forums with only an interest in selling new tools. Spend your money wisely.

[minorhero]

Thanks for all of the replies. Another question, does anyone know if the Shop Fox W1819 and the Grizzly G0690 are the same saw?

Comically yes they are the identical saw.

Here is a pdf of the grizzly manual for that saw.

And here is the shopfox manual.

Scroll down to the exploded drawings and you will see they use identical drawings. Furthermore if you look at the parts numbers you will see that grizzly parts numbers start at 1 and go up while the shop fox part numbers start at 100 and go up. However the part numbers and descriptions are identical.

As for buying used machines. Absolutely you can get a better deal on a used machine then you can on a brand new one. If you dropped 1500 on a used machine you can expect a used american built powermatic 66 or Delta Unisaw in plug and play condition ready to go. However, as much as I love used machines (and I have essentially built my shop around nothing but used machines and tools whenever possible), I must point out that used machines will probably require some labor on your part to get them working. At 1500 you should be buying a used machine in perfect working order. However, used machines can have problems even their previous owner did not know about so there is always that risk. To me its a negligible risk because I take all my tools apart and put them back together again after I clean everything and repaint. But not everyone wants to do that. The other issue with used machines is that with very few exceptions, most saws 20+ years old did not have riving knifes. I added a BORK riving knife to my 1950 unisaw and I am pretty pleased with it. But keep it in mind that older saws will not have that feature and may be difficult to add-on if it is even possible.

[thewoodwhisperer]

Remember, there are a few tool salesmen that lerk in these forums with only an interest in selling new tools.

I think you might have our forum confused with another..... This has certainly not been my experience here.

[SawSucker]

Thats right Apple, some used stuff your going to need to work on it. But if your educated enough on machinery you can come out pretty darn good, and I have quite a few times. For example, if I thought that I needed a Cabinet saw there is a late model, made in the USA Unisaw with a 50" Unifence for sale in my area that the guy claims is in excellent condition for $850 or best offer. On a $1500 budget that would leave me with an extra $650 or more for an Electrician, or a mobile base, or a dust collector, or anything else you might think you need in the shop. or just put it back in the bank. Seems like a no brainer to me. The left tilt and the Riving knife don't mean much to me other then sales gimmicks, blade guards and splitters have been on saws about as long as they have been makeing table saws, guess where most end up ? Not on the saw.

[knotscott]

Thanks for all of the replies. Another question, does anyone know if the Shop Fox W1819 and the Grizzly G0690 are the same saw?

Yes...Shop Fox and Grizzly are both owned by the same guy (he actually frequents a few forums and is an accomplished woodworker and luthier). Grizzly is mail order with a one year warranty, Shop Fox has retail dealers and a two year warranty. SF is usually a little more expensive, but there's more dealer flexibility with price, and I've seen sale prices bring the SF lower than the Griz.

A good used saw is definitely a viable option if you find the right saw, and are comfortable going that route.

[ChetlovesMer]

I think you might have our forum confused with another..... This has certainly not been my experience here.

Thanks for saying that, Marc.

Because if you didn't I was going to.

[SawSucker]

Thanks for saying that, Marc.

Because if you didn't I was going to.

Comeon you guys, cut the crap. How would you know if a tool or machinery salesman came here ? The tool and machinery companies have a strong interest in wood working forums. The forums keep the hobby, skill, trade, or what ever you want to call it interesting and alive, which in return sells machinery and tools. While theres nothing wrong with that, at the same token you can't believe everything that is posted, sometimes it's sales hype. SawStop is a prime example.

[minorhero]

Comeon you guys, cut the crap. How would you know if a tool or machinery salesman came here ? The tool and machinery companies have a strong interest in wood working forums. The forums keep the hobby, skill, trade, or what ever you want to call it interesting and alive, which in return sells machinery and tools. While theres nothing wrong with that, at the same token you can't believe everything that is posted, sometimes it's sales hype. SawStop is a prime example.

Alright I'll call. Please point out a salesman.

[ChetlovesMer]

Comeon you guys, cut the crap. How would you know if a tool or machinery salesman came here ? The tool and machinery companies have a strong interest in wood working forums. The forums keep the hobby, skill, trade, or what ever you want to call it interesting and alive, which in return sells machinery and tools. While theres nothing wrong with that, at the same token you can't believe everything that is posted, sometimes it's sales hype. SawStop is a prime example.

I've been accused of being a SawStop Rep or sales person a couple of times. But the truth is I live a much more glamorous life. I’m a hydraulic sales engineer. … It’s okay to be envious of my glitzy career.

I have a tiny custom cabinet business (read that as tax shelter for my hobby) on the side. Oh and I do of course belong to the local chapter of the SawStop Cult, (I won’t go there again, but I can get you a good deal on Goat-skin pants if you’d like to dance around our ancient ruin.)

I do find it odd that somebody would think that me posting messages about liking my SawStop means I work for the company. So, by extension what I really should be doing is going out to hydraulic forums (they must exist) and promoting the products I actually represent there in hopes that somebody will read what I’ve written, who also happens to live down the street from me, and then will decide “That Chet, he’s a genius! I’m going to get the exact same hydraulics he has!” And then that person will come calling me and looking to buy tons of hydraulic components and I will put my competitors out of business.

Okay that, or I could steal time from my real job, with some occasional escape, (sometimes a little too occasional) and come peek in on what people who share my hobby are doing and we can discuss the finer points about the tools we like and dislike and hopefully pick up a tip or two about how to build a crosscut jig or best store left over cut-offs.

….. hmmm… I think I’ll choose escapism.

PS > Mark, I didn't mean to hijack your post.

[SawSucker]

Well for SawStop they have a couple Industrial Cabinet saw models, and what they call Professional Cabinet saw models, and a Contractor's saw. The SawStop Professional line of Cabinet saws Seem to me like they should be labeled as Hybrids. In comparison to the SawStop Industrial line of cabinet saws, the Professional line weighs 200 lbs less, and only uses 2 belts to drive the blade verses 3. In my opinion the SawStop Professional line of table saws aren't built like a traditional Cabinet saw. To be fair SawStop isn't the only company that has shied away from the Hybrid label, Steel City has also dropped the Hybrid label and now calls them Cabinet saws also, if you want a traditional Indusrial cabinet saw then you need to look at the Deluxe Cabinet saws that they offer. When the Hybrid table saws were first produced by a few manufactures there really wasn't a set standard, some had table mounted trunions, and some had cabinet mounted trunions. For todays consumer in some cases you don't know what your geting unless your familiar with what is what, you can't trust what the manufacturer labels the saw. Makita now labels their Aluminum and plastic light weight table saw as a Contractor's saw.

[thewoodwhisperer]

Comeon you guys, cut the crap. How would you know if a tool or machinery salesman came here ? The tool and machinery companies have a strong interest in wood working forums. The forums keep the hobby, skill, trade, or what ever you want to call it interesting and alive, which in return sells machinery and tools. While theres nothing wrong with that, at the same token you can't believe everything that is posted, sometimes it's sales hype. SawStop is a prime example.

Yes of course company reps come to this forum. They are welcome here and they are given a special Vendor tag for all to see. Of course these companies can make fake accounts and try to push their products, but this community is pretty good about sniffing out the BS. Not to mention, if you see a rave review come in from someone with only one or two posts, a red flag should go off. Issues like this are addressed immediately by the administrative staff of the forum.

This forum is not quite like the ones you are used to. I like to operate with the assumption that everyone is who they say they are, until proven otherwise. Yes its the internet. But information from a company employee holds all the same risks and potential for incorrect info as the stuff coming from well-meaning woodworkers who are just partial to the tools they spent good money on. So all information should be put through a common sense filter.

But in a post like this where all the advice seems solid and honest, I'm not sure why there is finger-pointing going on. Let's save that for when an actual problem occurs.

[ChetlovesMer]

Well for SawStop they have a couple Industrial Cabinet saw models, and what they call Professional Cabinet saw models, and a Contractor's saw. The SawStop Professional line of Cabinet saws Seem to me like they should be labeled as Hybrids. In comparison to the SawStop Industrial line of cabinet saws, the Professional line weighs 200 lbs less, and only uses 2 belts to drive the blade verses 3. In my opinion the SawStop Professional line of table saws aren't built like a traditional Cabinet saw. To be fair SawStop isn't the only company that has shied away from the Hybrid label, Steel City has also dropped the Hybrid label and now calls them Cabinet saws also, if you want a traditional Indusrial cabinet saw then you need to look at the Deluxe Cabinet saws that they offer. When the Hybrid table saws were first produced by a few manufactures there really wasn't a set standard, some had table mounted trunions, and some had cabinet mounted trunions. For todays consumer in some cases you don't know what your geting unless your familiar with what is what, you can't trust what the manufacturer labels the saw. Makita now labels their Aluminum and plastic light weight table saw as a Contractor's saw.

I'm with you on this one. The entire Hybrid/Cabinet/Professional Series and other labels get very confusing and seem to vary from one company to the next. I thought I knew the definitions at one time, but now I'm not so sure.

[mdoering]

I agree with Marc... enough complaining, lets get back to what we all enjoy, making sawdust! (frankly I find it a bit inappropriate and disrespectful to the OP to get off on a tangent like this when the guy is looking for guidance...)

Now that that's out of the way.... if the PM is too much, you could always go with a Jet... They are both owned by the WMH Tool Group and while that doesn't mean they're the same, they certainly share a bloodline... I have the Jet XACTASAW Deluxe (Stock No: 708675PK) it's 3HP single phase and has a 50" fence (708674PK has the shorter fence) and I have 0 complaints about it... it was crated well, setup was a snap, the arbor lock is a great feature that I think was brought over from the PM line, a riving knife, a very usable blade guard, and it even has a drawer in the base for holding accessories like blades, riving knives, pawls, and push sticks... The only problem with it was the mdf extension table for the 50" fence was a bit warped, one phone call to WMH got me a real person who sent me a new extension table without question that was delivered in 2-3 days. I suppose I don't have a lot to compare it to as the only other tablesaw I ever used was a 50+ year old general that was in my middle school wood shop, but I'll tell you this... in three and a half years I haven't found anything about this saw as a serious hobbyist that would even make me consider recommending against purchasing it. The list price you'll see around is a bit more (for the 50" fence) than your budget, but most suppliers have wiggle room, and in my case, it was a toss up between Woodcraft and a local supplier... Woodcraft had the better price but a 3-4 MONTH lead time before they could ship it.. the local guy had it in stock... I opted to work with the local guy and ended up with the same saw for the online price and had it the next day... The local guy even threw in a mobile base and didn't charge for lift gate service like the Woodcraft carrier would have.

My best advice though is to see what's available used in your area. I've been seeing some great pieces (PM66, General, Jet, etc) come up on craigslist for insane prices... All those shiny tools are the first things to go when someone faces losing their house, which has been happening at all too rapid of a pace...

As you've seen, you'll find lots of brand fanboys out there, but that doesn't mean they work for a company nor does it discount the quality of another manufacturers product, it just means that like me, they are so satisfied with a product that they would jump at the opportunity to help someone find what THEY feel is the best for the money... Looking at my shop you'd think I had a Jet sponsorship (Jet table saw, bandsaw, dust collector, jointer, planer) even down to the extra metal Jet stickers on the door to the shop that were very kindly sent to me when I got the mdf extension table replaced (for free with no need to ship the old one back) but in actuality, it's just the opposite... I sponsor them... I feel I get a lot out of them for my investment, so I never have a problem sponsoring their development and manufacturing by purchasing their well made tools. Different strokes for different folks right? In the end, if the tool does what you need it to do when you need it to do it, and you feel like it was a sound investment, then everyone walks away happy.

[SawSucker]

(frankly I find it a bit inappropriate and disrespectful to the OP to get off on a tangent like this when the guy is looking for guidance...)

Mark, I'm sorry that you feel that way. I gave what I know, and what I felt was relative to the subject of buying a saw, if you or anyone else didn't get anything out of it, then I apologize for wasting your time.

[Firehawk]

* Update *

My Grizzly G0690 arrived today. I was very please with how easy the set up went and with the quality level of the materials. I will be wiring for 220 and setting up my dust collector tomorrow.

[over40pirate]

Hi Everyone,

I am trying to decide on a table saw to purchase. My two major requirements are portability (within my 12x20 shop) and an accurate fence. I am trying not to spend over $1500, if my budget was not an issue I would buy a Powermatic 1792002K. From the research I have done the Grizzly G0690 is a major contender, my only concern is finding a good mobile base as I have read reviews of issues with the weight. I have even considered the Powermatic model 64, although have concerns on reviews I have read regarding inaccurate fence and general quality issues. Your comments and advice is appreciated.

For $1500, you should be able to buy a like new older Unisaw.

Last wk, here on CL, was a Grizz cabinet saw for $500.

[wilburpan]

Did you get a mobile base? If so, which one?

[Firehawk]

I purchased the Heavy Duty Shop Fox mobile base. I had to cut the rails down a couple inches to get a good fit. I am very pleased with the saw and the base.

Did you get a mobile base? If so, which one?