Pwk5017 Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Im in the process of assembling a bar top(see attached), and i want to make sure I handle these two joints properly. I have my three blanks in clamps right now and plan to drum sand them to equal thickness and then cut the corresponding angles in each. Time to see how accurate a cut the TS75 can do. Assuming I get an awesome edge off the saw, can i simply epoxy the joint or do i need to treat pieces 1 and 3 as breadboards of sorts? This is alternating flat sawn maple and walnut that was ripped and turned on edge. Essentially, I have giant quartersawn panels. I can go back to review the end grain this evening, but assuming each piece has near vertical grain orientation, is wood movement a concern here? In theory, it will be moving vertically together instead of horizontally in opposing directions. I plan on using my buddy's domino on these joints, because i need precise vertical alignment; however, it opens the door for using the loose fitting to allow for movement in 1 and 3. Thoughts on how to approach this situation in an intelligent manner? Challenge #1 is repeating the same angle twice for each joint. I could use my starrett protractor head with 24" rule to mark an accurate angle, but I might be better off cutting #2 first and then laying it on top of the corresponding 1 or 3 to scribe the angle. Challenge #2 is finding the best method for affixing the wings and making sure i dont have a headache come December. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Epoxy and dominos should be fine. I would use the tight setting for the middle domino and lose setting for the rest. As for the cuts, cut the center first. Lay it on the 2 outer pieces until you have it set perfect and mark the lines. Pretty sure you could figure it out from there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wright Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 In my opinion, the best way to get the angles right is to build a mockup out of MDF and then once you have it the way you want it, cut close to the line with a circular saw and use the MDF as a template with a spiral router bit that has a bearing to for the final cut As far as strength, you do need to have something to reinforce the joint but dominoes should be sufficient. I think you are going to be fine with the wood movement issue because of the reasons you listed in your original post 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Sounds like you have a good plan in place. If 1 and 3 are longer than you need, cut your miter end first leaving yourself room for error and a redo to match the angle of #2. Then cut the ends square once you're happy with the fit. Having a large shoulder plane on hand to finess the fit would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 I would use dominoes for alignment and Tite Joint fasteners to draw it tight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 16 minutes ago, micks said: I would use dominoes for alignment and Tite Joint fasteners to draw it tight. Good suggestion. I was thinking about hand rail nails my buddy uses for interior railings, they are a special nail that draws railing sections tight. But these look even better for this application. Edit: The ones I was thinking about are called clamp nails. Stair railing suppliers carry them and they do work amazingly well for drawing two ends tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wright Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, micks said: I would use dominoes for alignment and Tite Joint fasteners to draw it tight. good suggestion - you can buy similar fasteners at a home center in the kitchen countertop section if you don't want to wait for an order from Rockler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwk5017 Posted May 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 17 minutes ago, micks said: I would use dominoes for alignment and Tite Joint fasteners to draw it tight. Yes, i forgot to mention those! I think 4 of them will be in order to handle the "how the heck do i clamp these things??" question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby W Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 One way to get the edges to match perfectly: rough cut you angles, then lay the pieces on a sheet of plywood or MDF. Adjust the pieces so they are in the orientation you want, but with a 3/8's inch space between then. Clamp the pieces down tightly. Set up a fence and run a 1/2 inch router bit down the gap. You should now have a perfect fit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Just one other thought.. You may want to plan your clamping strategy ahead of time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 I think Dominos and Tite Joint fasteners is the way to go. Do a dry run assembly of the joints to make sure you have everything figured out and on hand before you glue it up. I see no problems with wood movement at the joints but do use slotted holes in the cabinets to allow the top to expand and contract from front to back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 55 minutes ago, wdwerker said: I see no problems with wood movement at the joints but do use slotted holes in the cabinets to allow the top to expand and contract from front to back. I agree. The length of every cut edge is the same, so movement should be uniform across all sections. Like Steve said, just allow for the movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwk5017 Posted May 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 58 minutes ago, TIODS said: Just one other thought.. You may want to plan your clamping strategy ahead of time goes without saying i anticipate this to be a complete S show, which is why i was planning on WS epoxy. I think it gives you like 60 mins of open time, and it's gap filling--I expect to need both attributes on this one. I should video this one and send it to Festool to use me as one of their product spots. Except I will need a beard, a shop with more than 3 systainers, and a much cooler story than this striped bar. Seriously though, if the domino works as well as it looks in videos, im afraid this will force me to turn around and buy the 700/XL on the spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Pwk5017 said: goes without saying i anticipate this to be a complete S show, which is why i was planning on WS epoxy. I think it gives you like 60 mins of open time, and it's gap filling--I expect to need both attributes on this one. I should video this one and send it to Festool to use me as one of their product spots. Except I will need a beard, a shop with more than 3 systainers, and a much cooler story than this striped bar. Seriously though, if the domino works as well as it looks in videos, im afraid this will force me to turn around and buy the 700/XL on the spot. I never regretted my domino purchase! The WS is great stuff as well but, I wouldn't count on 60 minutes of open time.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwk5017 Posted May 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 43 minutes ago, TIODS said: I never regretted my domino purchase! The WS is great stuff as well but, I wouldn't count on 60 minutes of open time.. Ah, you are right. 25-30 min open time in 72°. Still, for 3 pieces and 2 joints that should be adequate. You deserve to lose if it takes you longer than that to get it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Pwk5017 said: Ah, you are right. 25-30 min open time in 72°. Still, for 3 pieces and 2 joints that should be adequate. You deserve to lose if it takes you longer than that to get it right. It would be helpful to have a second set of hands for a piece that size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwk5017 Posted May 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, TIODS said: It would be helpful to have a second set of hands for a piece that size. Oh yes. I do big counter glue ups all the time by myself, but the complex ones always involve my fiance(soon to be wife, that is going to take some getting used to...). This wont be her first or last rodeo. The way this one is planned out, I shouldnt need her, but I might have her stand there for moral support. Completely botching a glue up is among the worst feelings in life. I recently did an island top where I had the B face on the show side of the island. I got lucky that this board had a bit of sapwood on the B face, so no big deal, but it could have been a nightmare had it been some of the other boards in that projects. Goes to show why you should take glueups very seriously, and why you shouldnt woodwork the day after your bachelor party when you are suffering from the worst hangover of your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown craftsman Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 All good suggestions I have a domino and it has saved my butt on complicatied glue ups. I know of a fastener that might work for ya. I do work a friend when he needs counter top installed.On work stations.Heres a pic of a simaler fastener they send we don't use glue and it allows for alignment .Ya just have to get under to tighten them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 The big difference is if you over tighten a TiteJoint fastener it doesn't try to jump out of the recess. Also easier to drill holes vs route a special shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwk5017 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Figured Im a jerk for always asking questions and never following up with the results. This was all for a small-ish new restaurant. A couple lessons learned on this project. One, I am never cutting circles in thick hardwood with a router again. I should have just spent the necessary 45-60 mins to make the appropriate circle cutting jig for my bandsaw. It took a billion passes with the router in a circle. I had some tear out despite doing a climb cut in tricky grain areas, and it was just plain SLOW. Next, I thought the angled cuts on the bar top were going to be incredibly easy. For the life of me, I cant figure out why the pieces didnt join perfectly off the TS75. I had about 1/32" of a gap at the end of each joint. The odd part is the cut offs made an absolute flawless joint when I played around with them. How is that possible? In the end, 1/32" didnt matter, because the epoxy filled the gap, but it drives me crazy when stuff isnt dead nuts on. The titejoint fasteners worked very well. Two per joint is the only clamping pressure I used after applying the epoxy. I wasnt able to use my friend's domino for this one as planned, because he was away for the weekend. I had a hard deadline of 6-1 to meet, so no domino fun for me. Turns out I didnt really need dominos for alignment. I clamped the ends together and then cranked on the titejoints to bring them together tightly. I doubt its the strongest joint in the world, but if it opens a bit, they can always adjust the fasteners. Currently on my 3-4th coat of waterlox original, and I hope to sand with 400 tonight and apply the final thin coat prior to them picking it up tomorrow evening. Certainly one of the lengthier and more complex commissions I have done thus far. It didnt lighten the load any having 2 weeks to complete this on top of getting ready for my wedding this weekend. I didnt track my hours to the T, but looks like 35-40 hours total in the build with around 100bdft of lumber. Atleast 8-10 of the total hours were spent jerking around with the angled joint and cutting circles. I would really like to have that time back. I really regretted finishing the last kitchen counter job in my basement with waterlox, and moved everything out to the cluttered garage. This finish is made up of 95% VOCs; it is dreadful to be around. Patrick 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Turned out great! Thanks for sharing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Very nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chet Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Really came out nice. Thanks for the pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Thanks for the follow up pictures. Looks great ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenskye Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Turned out really nice! As for the TS75 issue, I have heard of toe in/out issues that can effect the ends of the cut, which is why you may have a very small gap at end of cut. But if the off cuts were perfect as you mentioned, then maybe it is something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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