Kranzpj Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I'm planning to get my first hand plane for Christmas and have been researching sharpening systems. I'm looking for something quick, foolproof, and relatively inexpensive. I seem to be leaning toward the M-power sharpening system. (http://www.m-powertools.com/products/pss1/pss1.htm). It seems inexpensive when compared to waterstones and a honing guide, and I'm assuming since we're talking about diamond plates they don't need to be flattened. I'm also guessing you can use the same plates to flatten the back freehand. Anyone have experience with this system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wm_crash Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 The m-power system is the only woodworking item I remember returning because I did not find it satisfactory. I tried it on chisels and narrow plane blades. The tools would not stay in place. I tried having a stronger hold on the tools, but stuff was still moving around. It doesn't help that the difference between your edge being sharpened and your edge binding in the mechanism is very tiny and difficult to get right. I also remember reading other reviews saying there is quite some slop in the dovetail, but that was after I returned mine so I didn't look for that. The only thing I remember is the thing not working for me. So there, my opinion is to spend the money on something else. Sharpening to where you can shave is an expensive business. Getting a decent edge for woodworking is still an expense, but it's not such a bad deal. If you are really tight for cash, use some sandpaper and do the scary sharp thing. I personally don't like the idea of using sandpaper to sharpen (there is no Zen there), but it gets the job done. cheers, wm_crash, the friendly hooligan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Combination-India-Stone-P69C25.aspx 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 ==> M-power sharpening system Ask 10 woodworkers about sharpening, you're going to get 11 different answers... My sharpening philosophy, keep it simple... and keep consumables to a minimum... I try to avoid gimmicky sharpening systems... Although no experience with M-power, it looks too gimmicky for me... Get yourself either an Eclipse or Veritas Jig... Now for the abrasives... Clay-matrix waterstones -- cuts fast, moderate start-up cost, great on softer steels (O1, et al), poor on hard steels (A2, et al), messy Ceramic waterstones -- cuts faster, high start-up cost, great on hard steels, but there's that water thing again Natural waterstones -- Zen in the Art of Sharpening... Diamond stones --- cuts fast, high start-up cost Sandpaper (scary sharp) -- cheapest start-up cost, low-to-moderate cutting speed, expensive over time. Lapping film -- low initial cost, cuts faster than sandpaper, expensive over time Oil stones - cuts slowly, but avoids the water -- I maintain they're less messy than waterstones, but most disagree Tormek -- very nice if you have the budget Less-expensive wet grinders -- most are not recommended Diamond paste on MDF, Lapping plate, Glass, etc -- cuts faster than sandpaper, slower than lapping film, expensive over time. Garage floor... and no, I'm not kidding... There are probably a dozen that I've forgot to mention... Point is: all are valid, but folks can become quite dogmatic about a sharpening system. Pick a system and stick with it until proficient.. If forced to make a recommendation, it would be Natural Arkansas Oil Stones or, if you have the budget, Ceramic waterstones http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Difference-in-Sharpening-Stone-Materials-W51C117.aspx For a more in-depth discussion of sharpening systems, Ron Hock's Sharpening Blog is the place to be: http://hocktools.wordpress.com/ If you want to learn more about Natural Waterstones: http://thejapanblade.com/archives.htm Note: Diamond paste on MDF is a super fast set-up. If I'm in the middle of a job and need a quick chisel tune-up, I just grab a piece of scrap MDF, spread some diamond paste and quickly freehand polish the micro-bevel... From start to finish in under two minutes... Personally, I use a dry bench grinder to shape a new edge, Tormek to create the initial primary bevel and ceramic water-stones for a secondary bevel... If I have some time to spend (and the tool can benefit from it), I may polish the micro-bevel on a natural Japanese water-stone. Typically, I only polish the micro-bevels on my paring chisels... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick A McQuay Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I appreciate what M-Power is trying to do. One of the best knife sharpeners made clamps the blade while you move the sharpening stone at a fixed angle, seems much more efficient but my first impression of the M-Power is that it would tend to bind (I haven't used it so this may not be true). If the bed that holds the chisel were longer I think it would be a better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I have to agree with HHH. With whatever sharpening medium you choose you need a honing guide like a Veritas MKII or the far cheaper Eclipse honing guide (just make sure you make the mods to the Eclipse as per Deneb Puchalski video on the LN website). I now use scary sharp sand paper on granite as it is very quick to get the initial bevel and flatten backs on flea market finds. I finish off on jap waterstones and also use waterstones to touch up frequently. If you want a recommendation for sandpapers try the Stewmac self adhesive rolls. I believe it's made by 3M and is called Gold-Fre cut. It lasts for ages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aengland Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Sort of a confession but mostly just "owning" the process: Being cheap, I started with sandpaper but got less than stellar results. Most often, I dubbed the edge due to rolling air bubbles or grit on the substrate. Bought better substrate (=expensive) and better sand paper (more expense) and decided to move on. Bought a 6" dual speed grinder, along with 46 and 60 grit wheels. Blued a quite a few chisels before learning that crumbling edges is what bluing an edge does. Finally learned a lighter touch with more often water dips. But, blessed with b'day money, I popped for a Tormek! Sweet.... is the Tormek!!!!! I've been using it for nearly 5 years (though less so in the last two). It is absolutely fantastic for wood turning tools, chisels, knives, hatchets, axes, and the like. Perhaps this is the single best investment I made prior to stones. Why stones? Flattening blade backs--not a Tormek ability. With the need to flatten backs, I ventured on to waterstones--Nortons initially. Good but messy, and I was totally terrible at reproducing what the Tormek did on automatic. But the 1000, 4000, and 8000 stones worked! Even the water mess wasn't that bad--and it's better than an oily mess on wood any day! My real arrival came when a friend helped me learn how to sharpen freehand. I finally did so, and sharpening most anything has become a real joy--backs or bevels. Now, I've upgraded to ceramic (harder) stones and love them! The Tormek gets used for major edge repairs; my Choseras and Sigma power stones do all the other work. Since learning how to freehand, I've gone back and tried sand paper, oil stones, and diamond stones. Truth is, they all work now. For me, the water stones work best at producing the absolute finest edges!!!! In reality, so long as I'm not cutting end grain or working gnarly grain, most of these mediums will produce a quality 5k-6k edge, that can be improved to about 8k or so with leather and polishing compounds. Difficult grain demands about 8k or better. Blessings as you find your path. What you don't spend on sharpening systems could be better spent on the wood or more tools. So pick one and make it work for you. And stop looking for those "better" ways, since better sometimes is only different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 ==> Eclipse as per Deneb Puchalski video on the LN website LN is working on their own jig... Bet it will be pretty sweet, but also just a tad $$ more than the Eclipse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 MKII is ten bucks off at Woodcraft. Not cheap. Not even "relatively" inexpensive, but about as foolproof as they come. My helpers can use it to get an edge as good as I can, while they are pretty hopeless by hand. I have a real Eclipse that I used for 35 years before the MKII. The two step microbevels are worth the price of admission., D-way CBN wheel came today. I'm anxious to try it tomorrow. I'm glad I put off ordering one. They have them with radiused edges now. I got the fine one with radiused edges to see if I like it, and wait to see what this one will do before I order the coarser one. I have one of each sharpening system, and multiples of some. Archie made a good point. Once you know how to get an edge sharp with one system, you can do it with any of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 I have an MKII and 3 different grit diamond stones. And that's all I use. I keep them and a little bottle of water with a bit of dish soap in it and I've been able to sharpen any tool in my shop to a mirror finish. The only thing I don't have is a really coarse stone if I ever need to really rework a blade, but that's pretty rare so I just use my 800 equivalent diamond stone and it takes a little bit longer. I originally had water stones, but since I can't remember to take them out of the shop when the temperature drops the water would freeze and crack my stones. (My shop is better heated and much better insulated now a days but that's another thread.) Diamond stones are about as fool proof as you can get. It used to be that you couldn't get a really fine mirror finish with the diamond stones but today they have them up to and above 8000 equivalents and much higher. They don't break if you drop them. They don't need to be kept in a bath to use them. They are flat forever. You can use them to flatten things other than cutting surfaces of tools. Squirt a bit of soapy water on them and you are good to go. I used to stoop my blades after finishing with the diamond stones, but I found that didn't significantly improve their performance so now I go straight from the highest grit diamond stone to the tool. Okay, I know they are not sexy like water stones or oil stones, but I get my blades sharp fast, easily, reliably, and you don't need a masters degree to figure out how to do it. I was educated in Chicago Public Schools and I can get an edge with which I can trim arm hairs in only a couple minutes or less. All diamonds, all the time! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 ==> crack my stones yea, I dropped a sweet #6000 waterstone a couple of months ago... D'oh! - hate when that happens... ==> mirror finish http://thejapanblade.com/sharpvsshiny.htm ...just something to think about... Zen in the Art of Sharpening... Ron Hock has a related article on his blog... but I can't find it at the moment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Thanks HHH, Yeah, I've read that a few times. When picking my sharpening system I read everything I could think of that would help me decide. That's why I don't envy Kranzpj. Choosing a sharpening system is like choosing a spouse. It's a huge investment of time and money. It seems like there are a trillion choices out there. The really sexy ones often seem really expensive, not to mention finicky. There are some which are really effective, but you wouldn't admit you have them to your friends. If you get it wrong it seems like your stuck with it for a while, I mean you've put so much time and money into it, how can you just give up on it, so you try to make it work, convincing yourself you have the right one, but really it's a lie and you hate it so much you which you would have listen to that damned friend of yours who seems so happy with his.... Anyway, I digress. The 3 diamond stone system is quick and easy for me. I'm not sure if it's truly a mirror, but its really shiny and seems really sharp. And I can't remember ever using a chisel or a plane and thinking "Dang, I wish I would have used a different system to sharpen this." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Chet, what diamond stones are available in something akin to an 8,000 grit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolf Maxa Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 I won a Work sharp 3000, and I think it works great. I also have a set of water stone, which I use less and less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 ==> Yeah, I've read that a few times. Ron Hock has a related article on his blog... He expands on the concept of mirror finish and helps to differentiate between sharp and ability to cleave wood fibers... The three ideas are all-to-freely mixed in the woodworking community, but they are not the same thing... Woodworkers routinely (and incorrectly) associate a mirror finish with sharp and sharp with the ability to work wood... A mirror finish is down to the scratch pattern's depth and uniformity -- a blade with a mirror finish may, in fact, not be sharp at all... A sharp blade may have a uniform scratch pattern (think ceramic waterstones) and a mirror finish... Or an equally sharp blade may not have a uniform scratch pattern (think natural waterstones) and have a satin finish... A sharp edge is usually defined as two surfaces in the same plane meeting at a zero-radius (or something similar). While such a blade would be sharp, it may not cleave wood fibers as well as one with slight irregularities (think serrated bread knife). You can sharpen your Chef's knife all you want, but it won't slice bread as efficiently as a dull serrated bread knife... In sharpening parlance, these edge-imperfections are 'micro-serrations'. Ability to cleave wood fibers... Obvious definition (how an edge performs on wood), but not so easy to explain... Honing imparts a scratch pattern and irregularities at the blade's edge. Each honing system leaves a predictable scratch pattern and type of irregularity (for a given steel). It's these differences that separate the honing effectiveness of one sharpening system from another... It also explains why two systems with the same 0.5 micron abrasive can produce vastly different results on the same tool -- not in sharpness, but in the edge's ability to cleave wood fibers... If you go to Ron's blog, you can spend days reviewing electron micro-graphs and absorbing the basics. Some folks make an entire hobby out of sharpening... http://hocktools.wordpress.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kranzpj Posted December 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 I like the all diamond idea. It seems like less mess and no flattening. I can see falling into the trap of getting too precious with flatness. Maybe the DMT 3 Whetstone is a good start. Best Amazon rating I've seen for a woodworking item: http://www.amazon.com/DMT-W6EFC-6-Inch-Diamond-Whetstone/dp/B003NCVFC4/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top Maybe if I want to get fancy later I can add the 8000 grit equivalent diamond bench stone: http://www.dmtonlinestore.com/8-Dia-Sharp-Continuous-Diamond-Bench-Stone-P15.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 ==> Maybe the DMT 3 Whetstone is a good start. You know, I've got that set somewhere in the shop (I probably have EVERY system somewhere in my shop) Actually, I think I've got the 4 stone DMT set... I only use the extra-course stone to flatten waterstones -- the others have never been out of their cases... If you're interested in that setup, shoot me a PM and I'll do you a deal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kranzpj Posted December 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Maybe the DMT 3 Whetstone is a good start. Second thought, looks like the "stones" are only 2" wide. Probably too narrow for a 2-1/4" jack plane blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisG Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 For basic edge maintenance all you really need is one medium stone (india stone or 1k water stone or equivalent diamond stone) and one fine stone (hard ark, 8k+ waterstone, or diamond equivalent). I recommend getting something like this for starting out. http://www.lie-nielsen.com/blade-sharpening/lie-nielsen-basic-sharpening-set/ and then watching the LN sharpening videos on you tube to help you learn to use it effectively. Avoid gimmicks, a basic side clamping honing guide, a couple decent stones, and a way to keep them flat is all you need to get started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick A McQuay Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Not to be argumentative with Ron Hock (who knows more about sharpening than I ever will) but a sharp chef's knife will slice bread just fine and much better than a serrated edge. That said, it's a moot point because bread and wood have completely different structures. I try not to be obsessive about sharpening because it's one of things where over thinking can be counterproductive. Here is a shaving from a Stanley 9 1/2 I rehabbed awhile back, the wood is sliced so cleanly it looked and felt like plastic. Sharpened with sandpaper up to 2000 grit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Chet, what diamond stones are available in something akin to an 8,000 grit? I've seen a few. Here's one. http://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/dmt/dmt_dia_sharp_ee8000.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 ==> moot point because bread and wood have completely different structures Obviously, not meant as a literal like-for-like, but used as common-use household metaphor... ==> but a sharp chef's knife will slice bread just fine and much better than a serrated edge Have you actually tried the experiment? After reading the article, I tried it for myself. You can certainly cut bread with a straight edge, but not as efficiently as a serrated edge. It's a different cutting technique... There are numerous articles, YouTube videos, Blogs, etc explaining why. That's why a bread knife is used as a metaphor rather than a stack of electron micro-graphs... Folks can easily get their arms around the concept... An article from Lansky goes into more detail... https://lansky.com/index.php/blog/plain-edge-vs-serrations/ Actually, this one may be a better explanation... http://www.agrussell.com/Articles/a/108/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 The thing I don't like about diamond stones is that you don't get the feedback that you get with oil or water stones. With oil or water stones, you can feel when you're done with that grit because it feels like it's starting to dig in, when of course it really isn't. The 3/4" Marples chisel in the picture below was hand sharpened on Diamond Lapping film. Marples chisels hold a 20 degree bevel just fine for a paring chisel. The lighter pine shaving is much thicker than the ones rolled up by the chisel, and came off a block plane. The little heart pine shavings were too fragile to unroll and get in the micrometer. There are any number of ways to get an edge this sharp, and none are right or wrong. A retiring machinist friend gave me this micrometer in the late '80s, as well as some other stuff. Mitutoyo was considered a lower end tool then compared to some American and German made ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 I had similar issues with the feedback on Diamond Tom, although they are clearly a valid and appropriate option for many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmaichel Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 ==> Eclipse as per Deneb Puchalski video on the LN website LN is working on their own jig... Bet it will be pretty sweet, but also just a tad $$ more than the Eclipse I actually emailed LN and asked them about the honing guide. It is due out sometime early next year, hopefully Jan. It does look pretty sweet. For the OP, I try to keep it as simple as possible and accessible as possible. Below is a picture of my setup. I have an Ohishi 1000/8000 combination waterstone that I got from an LN event. I built simple jig based off one that LN has on their website making repeatable sharpening a lot easier. I use a DMT Duosharp for flattening the waterstones. What's great about the Ohishi stones is that don't need to soaked in water, they just need a little spritz, similar to the Shapton's. Here is a greater starter set from LN a very good price at $115 IMHO. Add a DMT coarse/extra coarse duosharp for $100. Here is a link to the jig plans, you have to scroll down a little and you will see link to download a PDF of the plans. Material for the jig is around $20. I also use a couple microfiber cloths in my system. One for wiping down tool between grits. The other stays in a tupperware container and is charged with camellia oil and is used to wipe down tools after sharpening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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