Thinking out loud

[collinb]

What if I added a sheet of plywood to the top of my contractor saw and added an edge to it for mounting a fence.
Of course it would require 3/4 gutters as a new miter slot.
It would be just a bit larger than the original top.  Would have to customize the fence to get away with this ...

The goal?  Make the top adjustable for that perfectly square cut, effectively separating the top from the trunions. 

The real loss would be about 3/4" of cutting height.

Input ... ???

[Immortan D]

Why don't just screw a circular saw to a piece of plywood?

 

[wdwerker]

Something more dense like phenolic might be better?Of course thick phenolic sheets are pricey. 

Start thinking about throat plates ,miter slot wear and how you are going to attach and remove this top. Starts getting way to involved I think.

[Brendon_t]

7 minutes ago, collinb said:

 

The goal?  Make the top adjustable for that perfectly square cut, effectively separating the top from the trunions. 

 

Most contractors saws are already adjustable.  The two that I have owned had an oversized mounting hole on the trunion so once loosened,there was play in it.

Your plywood idea,  is not a good one. 

On your thought process though, you could make a sled with the fence skewed to be 90 degrees to the blade, even if your runners are not perfectly aligned. 

[collinb]

Just now, Brendon_t said:

Most contractors saws are already adjustable.  The two that I have owned had an oversized mounting hole on the trunion so once loosened,there was play in it.

Your plywood idea,  is not a good one. 

Mine, too, is adjustable.  Three bolts front and back.  Loosen 6, adjust, tighten.  All are hard to get to and it is a very tedious task.  The design of the table really should have access holes for making the final adjustments. 

I would end up with the character of a hybrid, the improved contractor saw. 

Of course I *should* get the Pal system for the saw.  Even then I would also add holes on both sides for future access ease.  No sense in leaving things at the difficult level.

 

[Brendon_t]

If it has the adjustment, that's the way to fix it.  Do it right once.  Lock it down, and it won't move.  Adding a false floor adds a hundred other issues. 

[Eric.]

Jeez.  You're not broke.  Buy a new saw.  That's ridiculous.

[collinb]

Jeez.  You're not broke.  Buy a new saw.  That's ridiculous.

Like I said at the beginning ... Thinking out loud. You know, a thought experiment.

Input all noted & appreciated.

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[collinb]

Like I said at the beginning ... Thinking out loud. You know, a thought experiment.

Input all noted & appreciated.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

if you do rig up the plywood thing, please post a picture, preferably film, black and white.  

OK.

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[Brendon_t]

5 minutes ago, collinb said:

Like I said at the beginning ... Thinking out loud. You know, a thought experiment.

Input all noted & appreciated.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

Did your brain really tell you that was an idea worth  pursuing?  I try really hard to not be a troll/jerk but really? This is a zinger. 

[Chestnut]

51 minutes ago, Brendon_t said:

On your thought process though, you could make a sled with the fence skewed to be 90 degrees to the blade, even if your runners are not perfectly aligned. 

This idea unfortunately won't work. What ever the skew of the slots is would require the cut in the miter sled to be wide enough to allow the saw blade to move through the wood turned sideways, even if very slightly this can have a profound effect. Binding would occur and bad things could happen.

I just wanted to input that if someone stumbles across this in the future and decides to try it. Tune up the saw, it'll just make everything better.

[drzaius]

Great idea! While you're at is, why not reinvent the wheel? Cause, you know, there's got to be a way to make it better:)

[collinb]

45 minutes ago, Brendon_t said:

Did your brain really tell you that was an idea worth  pursuing?  I try really hard to not be a troll/jerk but really? This is a zinger. 

 

7 minutes ago, drzaius said:

Great idea! While you're at is, why not reinvent the wheel? Cause, you know, there's got to be a way to make it better:)

I'll repeat myself: It's called a "thought experiment."  That means I'm not going to *do* it unless the concept works out.  Some have provided valuable considerations.  Others, it seems, enjoy the alternatives.

 

[Brendon_t]

1 hour ago, Chestnut said:

This idea unfortunately won't work. What ever the skew of the slots is would require the cut in the miter sled to be wide enough to allow the saw blade to move through the wood turned sideways, even if very slightly this can have a profound effect. Binding would occur and bad things could happen.

I just wanted to input that if someone stumbles across this in the future and decides to try it. Tune up the saw, it'll just make everything better.

You're  100% right.  I didn't think at all about the toe in of the blade. Thanks. 

[jHop]

35 minutes ago, collinb said:

 

I'll repeat myself: It's called a "thought experiment."  That means I'm not going to *do* it unless the concept works out.  Some have provided valuable considerations.  Others, it seems, enjoy the alternatives.

 

I love thought experiments.  I spend hours trying to figure something out, and then turn around and someone shows me a photo of exactly what it was I was trying to over-engineer, and it's a ridiculously simple thing.

 

As I see it, though, you're trying to do three things simultaneously.  And two of those things use other tools to accomplish that task.  While I appreciate the time savings you're attempting to create by improving cut efficiency and eliminating repetitive tasks, sometimes that "safety cushion" comes back to save your butt.  Usually when you least expect it.

 

If you aren't getting square cuts off the saw, then adjust the saw.  Or the technique.  Don't add complexity to something to compensate.  (An example: Matthias Wandel's pantorouter.  It does simplify the routing of Mortises.  And look how much went into materials to create a precisely accurate tool.  Or, you could put two blocks on either side, and use a hand-held router.  It's your decision, though: time spent building/tuning up front versus time spent doing the task on the back.)

As an example, I first saw these (or something very similar) in a video about blacksmithing in Africa.  They didn't have access to the same things we do in the States, so they had to use what they already had available to make bellows.  (Essential in blacksmithing, bellows direct air into the bottom of the forge, so the heat can get hot enough to actually forge.  You can't rely on the air to just trickle down from the top, as the fire will consume it before it gets deep enough.)  Most blacksmiths in First World areas would acquire a different blower, either electric or even "antique" hand crank.  Since they didn't have access to the internet (especially as this was 20 years ago), they made something on their own.

 

This would be a great example of a thought experiment that works out.  Particularly given that the example I saw didn't require effort to maintain the air flow: you just stopped the bellows arm and pinned it in place, while the water from the pump (or stream, don't remember which) continued to try to force it down.    Sometimes, you have to be creative.... sometimes you don't.

[Keggers]

I really don't understand some of the jerky comments directed at Collin. Like the title says, "he's just thinking out loud."

I agree that his idea isn't practical nor advisable as I'm sure he now knows. I don't see why it's necessary to belittle someone for having an idea whether it's a good one or a bad one. Surely we can find a better way to impart our suggestions without being so negative.

We are all members in this forum to learn and share with each other and perhaps a little more thought should be given to comments before hitting the "submit reply" button.

 

[Llama]

11 minutes ago, Mike. said:

Agreed, its not like he is proposing buidling a roubo bench out of hardwood with a 20% moisture content  

Shots fired!

[drzaius]

1 hour ago, collinb said:

 

I'll repeat myself: It's called a "thought experiment."  That means I'm not going to *do* it unless the concept works out.  Some have provided valuable considerations.  Others, it seems, enjoy the alternatives.

 

OK everybody, back up the bus. I guess I should have put more big smileys after my comment. Do not take my comment seriously  

Colin, I love your thought experiments & other random musings that you post. If nobody ever tried taking a different angle on something it'd get boring in a hurry. Some of those ideas are just a little whackier than others So I just couldn't resist taking a poke.

[collinb]

41 minutes ago, drzaius said:

OK everybody, back up the bus. I guess I should have put more big smileys after my comment. Do not take my comment seriously  

Colin, I love your thought experiments & other random musings that you post. If nobody ever tried taking a different angle on something it'd get boring in a hurry. Some of those ideas are just a little whackier than others So I just couldn't resist taking a poke.

Smileys go a long way.  We all develop this thing, and it is quite real, called "internet personality" or "email personality" where what we put in words is often quite different from our face-to-face persona.

Being relatively new to this field I like to experiment.  It's like my (hold on) computer work.  When I started in the 70s the first skill one had to have was to know how to solder.  After that came programming.  Forget applications.  Just having a monitor ROM was considered a feat of technical excellence.  In a similar fashion it seems that much of woodworking considered rudimentary jigs to be the height of excellence.  Other industries have matured far past that point.  Why not woodworking?

Of course there is the volume production shop with computer controls.  (It seems everything today is just a computer with something attached to it.)

Right now I'm looking to invent something that I both wish to use this summer and which I cannot find in the marketplace.  Actually two things very closely related.  Specifically, an angled mortise and an angled tenon.  Everything is at 90 degrees. I think the art and craft demands more versatility.  Again, if I'm reinventing the wheel, someone point me to one that exists.  Otherwise, I've got some ideas for using each in some small projects.  (And unlike so many things I see, these will not be made entirely out of wood. That's the hard, and bulky, way to make things.)

[Brendon_t]

1 hour ago, Mike. said:

Agreed, its not like he is proposing buidling a roubo bench out of hardwood with a 20% moisture content  

...Apparently I need to golden rule this one. 

[Immortan D]

That diagonal joint, Collin, what are the benefits?

Is it stronger? Is it easier to produce? Does it look better than traditional M&T when exposed?

IMO it's a no, no and no, but YMMV.

[collinb]

6 minutes ago, Immortan D said:

That diagonal joint, Collin, what are the benefits?

Is it stronger? Is it easier to produce? Does it look better than traditional M&T when exposed?

IMO it's a no, no and no, but YMMV.

It will provide a cosmetic function.  Imagine a cross-piece that has a louvre appearance.  The mechanicals will be the same as always. 

So, to your questions (for the mortise): immaterial, that's the plan, and yes (for a specific application).

For the tenon project: Still working that one out.

[Immortan D]

41 minutes ago, Mike. said:

it is arguably weaker.  If you turn it another 45 degrees the tenon will be running perpendicular to the grain.  Too much weight and the piece will snap in a riving fashion.  

I agree. The joint is not well balanced. the weight is being shifted towards one of its corners. Of course that can be counteracted by the overall design of the specific piece.

[drzaius]

I think the diagonal mortise would cut into too much of the long grain, thereby weakening the piece. The tenon should be fine though. Of course, if the mortised piece had enough meat to the sides of the mortise it should be fine.

[Janello]

It's already been invented. Turn your domino 45 degrees off center and plunge. I'll have 100 of them done before you hear back from your patent lawyer.  < lots of smileys.