So I went ahead and made it.

[drzaius]

14 hours ago, Brendon_t said:

 Once cured, hit it with your ransom orbit sandwich. If the crust comes off,  you're pushing too hard. 

I literally laughed out loud! Glad I didn't have a mouth full of cereal.

Colin, while the Workmate is a great tool (I have one myself), it is not a precision vise. The mating surfaces of the vise just don't line up that perfectly, especially when tightened against a workpiece. Which is probably why the piece you have in the photo isn't square.

You would need to have an extremely precise vise for your scheme to work.

[collinb]

9 minutes ago, BobInAustin said:

I think the issue is there are now many more places for errors to creep in.  If the Workmate has any wind to it, if the Workmate is sitting on a section of the floor that is not flat, if the blocking is not square, if the blocking is not seated the same way, if saw dust or other debris sits between the blocking and the Workmate, the first time your plane touches the blocking it is ruined.

This is an interesting idea, but not one that is practical IMO.  It is way too easy to square a piece up.

 

4 minutes ago, Llama said:

Sure have a lot of criticism here, I'll add some more.

Learning how to square a board by hand takes some people more time than others. Some people just "get it", and others feel compelled to use jigs or a fence. The logic of using a fence or a jig to acheive a square edge is flawed from the beginning.

Here is why:

• A fence rides on the material in which you are trying to work flat. So, one part of the thing has to be flat before the fence will register properly. 
• Even if you are able to get a flat face in which the fence rides, poor technique will result in an edge that is not flat.
• It takes more time to set these gimmicks up than it does to just plane the darn board

As for thinking you've come up with something unique, it isn't. It has all been done. Look at a miter shoot for reference. The difference being is the miter shoot has a real use. This is because miters are typically planed on endgrain, so they need support of the shoot.

If you feel good about this contraption, then it is worth it to you in your shop. Trying to convince anyone else how great the idea is will not get you anywhere.

 

Thanks for the input guys.

The workmate on concrete does clamp evenly and tightly. I've found that the blocks to align nicely, else I wouldn't have posted my test.  It would have failed from the first.

The inside of the block is intentionally sacrificial.  But when any is taken off then the next piece requires a new block in order to align it (perhaps to a line or mark) for working.  So while it "works" it does not work "well" because it will probably be a 2- or 3-pass item.  With that in mind it will probably only be used a short time -- until I go electric.

So, should I learn to do it by hand? Maybe. Why? For purist reasons (because it's been done that way for hundreds of years) or functional reasons (because it's better)?  The former I reject. It's why I'm a ham but don't do cw.  It may have a place some day but has little use other than artistic ones these days.  (Go to hamvention and listen to cw as an art form. It's neat. But other than that ...)

The latter ... that's why I'm doing this in advance of going electric.  It's quick and functional.  And if I do only a half-dozen items -- I couldn't prefect learning the other way fast enough to justify small quantities. That seems to me *more* of a waste of time, like learning morse code. (With apologies to any ham out there, especially the one noted Extra among us who is likely quite proficient at it).

Sometimes the fruit of a test is to find negative fruit. Why is it bad? Because nobody every did it that way before? Because nobody could make it work before now? Because it is unproductive? Some answers are good; some are not. Tradition is not the fruit of an experiment.  Empirical testing may intentionally test for failure in order to determine parameters.

Trying to convince anyone else how great the idea is will not get you anywhere.

This really is a judgmental crowd. So many assumptions, so few questions ...

[Llama]

41 minutes ago, collinb said:

Empirical testing may intentionally test for failure in order to determine parameters.

I make my living running life cycle tests in a lab. You can test your fixture until you're blue in the face, but my above statements remain true. 

42 minutes ago, collinb said:

So many assumptions, so few questions ...

There have been questions in this and other threads you have started, which you have either ignored because you find them insulting or unproductive. 

If your goal is to test various ways to get a board flat, then do that and be clear about it. If that's the case, don't say you made this contraption to save time. If you need help designing such a boondoggle, I will be glad to offer suggestions. 

Did you look at the miter shoots? 

[collinb]

Just now, Llama said:

I make my living running life cycle tests in a lab. You can test your fixture until you're blue in the face, but my above statements remain true. 

There have been questions in this and other threads you have started, which you have either ignored because you find them insulting or unproductive. 

If your goal is to test various ways to get a board flat, then do that and be clear about it. If that's the case, don't say you made this contraption to save time. If you need help designing such a boondoggle, I will be glad to offer suggestions. 

Did you look at the miter shoots? 

I wonder of those 2 guys who got light to stand still for a full minute took that approach ([re]testing only what has been proven in the past). I doubt it.  Sounds short-sighted from this vantage point.

Various ways? When did I ever suggest that?

Did you look at the miter shoots? 

I looked at some.

http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/shootingboards.html

Many are pretty nifty.

A shooting board was the original inspiration for the channel (which was subsequently abandoned), thinking that if it works on one side it will work on both. Also, from a discussion in another thread, I raised a question about the shooting board being planed and was told that they required periodic replacement because of blade contact. Same as this design. Sounds like a feature they hold in common. 

Look like a familiar concept?  http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/wwimprovedshootingboard.html

I've never claimed to be solving the world's problems.  I'm just seeing if it can be turned vertical instead of lying flat.  That's really about it.

[Janello]

Here's what I see as the problem here. Not that Collin tried something, not even that Collin tried something that works for him or doesn't work for him. The problem I can't wrap my head around is by his own addmission he is in the learning stages of woodworking, he has a rebuttal for why his idea is a good one even after 5 people with a combined experience of 200 years of woodworking tell him it's not a good idea.

I gotta tell ya Collin, if I had a guy working for me as stubborn as you and not listening to employees with many more years experience and taking that advise and applying it or atleast thanking them...rather than using words such as elitist as purist attitude....I'd fire their ass. 

See it doesn't matter whether you are chasing your tail or not. You seem to take nothing away from what people are telling you with tons more experience and in the same breath tell them they are wrong...or you just don't get me. We get ya man...you use twine to hold yer table down. We get ya.

Again, the experimenting is cool, and failure is a learning experience, and so the wheel turns. If this jig you built works for you, than that's terrific. But please please please don't tell a woodworker with 12 times the experience that he just doesn't get it and this will someday be in every woodworking journal. Instead, maybe....just heed their good advise and actually try to do this without the training wheels and learn the craft so someday you may just be able to give good advise on the real technique that craftsman have been using for centuries. Or at the very least say, ya know you're right, I am not reinventing the wheel here but this works for me and I just don't have what it takes to learn the proper technique at this time. 

[Janello]

See this, this was my 5th time ever picking up a hand plane. No jig hindering the operation, no magic tricks...If this dumb plumber can do it...so can you.

2 hours ago, collinb said:

I wonder of those 2 guys who got light to stand still for a full minute took that approach

And for the record, these are the condescending rebuttal statements that I'm talking about, this thread is littered with them but I don't see it necissary to point the other 50 of them out to you. You seem to always know more but admittedly know less. 

[Llama]

2 hours ago, collinb said:

I wonder of those 2 guys who got light to stand still for a full minute took that approach ([re]testing only what has been proven in the past). I doubt it.  Sounds short-sighted from this vantage point.

They certainly took in the knowledge that was available before them. You have purposely jumped over conventional wisdom because you think you have it all figured out.

Let's for a second pretend that your device is great... It has limitations, just as the one you posted a link to. The most immediate limitations are at some point you will want to joint a board that is larger than your contraption. What will you do then? Take the training wheels off? No, you'd then argue that you need to make a bigger one. Jointing a board takes less than a minute, far less than a minute in most cases.

Chuck a piece of maple in your vise that is an inch wide, learn to joint the edge. It will take you less time to learn than you have spent arguing the value of your contraption. But then you wouldn't have anything to argue about.

2 hours ago, collinb said:

Various ways? When did I ever suggest that?

If you aren't willing to reevaluate your procedures, then it is not a test. Since this one is clearly a turd, I hoped you had moved on. Instead you seem hellbent on proving your contraption has some value.

[JosephThomas]

On 5/17/2016 at 7:46 AM, Eric. said:

Oh the ego.

 

 

This is your best post ever.

[BobInAustin]

4 hours ago, collinb said:

The inside of the block is intentionally sacrificial.  But when any is taken off then the next piece requires a new block in order to align it (perhaps to a line or mark) for working.  So while it "works" it does not work "well" because it will probably be a 2- or 3-pass item.  With that in mind it will probably only be used a short time -- until I go electric.

So every 2 or 3 boards, you will then have to make (square up) 2 more blocks for the jig?  So to square 3 boards, you have to really square up 5, 2 of which will be used for the jig and for which you'll have to do by hand (sans jig).

Also how are you going to deal with wind from the Workmate?

[Janello]

3 minutes ago, BobInAustin said:

Also how are you going to deal with wind from the Workmate?

Chili?

[collinb]

58 minutes ago, Janello said:

Here's what I see as the problem here. Not that Collin tried something, not even that Collin tried something that works for him or doesn't work for him. The problem I can't wrap my head around is by his own addmission he is in the learning stages of woodworking, he has a rebuttal for why his idea is a good one even after 5 people with a combined experience of 200 years of woodworking tell him it's not a good idea.

I gotta tell ya Collin, if I had a guy working for me as stubborn as you and not listening to employees with many more years experience and taking that advise and applying it or at least thanking them...rather than using words such as elitist as purist attitude....I'd fire their ass. 

See it doesn't matter whether you are chasing your tail or not. You seem to take nothing away from what people are telling you with tons more experience and in the same breath tell them they are wrong...or you just don't get me. We get ya man...you use twine to hold yer table down. We get ya.

Again, the experimenting is cool, and failure is a learning experience, and so the wheel turns. If this jig you built works for you, than that's terrific. But please please please don't tell a woodworker with 12 times the experience that he just doesn't get it and this will someday be in every woodworking journal. Instead, maybe....just heed their good advise and actually try to do this without the training wheels and learn the craft so someday you may just be able to give good advise on the real technique that craftsman have been using for centuries. 

Well, I'm not working for you.  That's probably a good thing.  I've had a successful career in IT where people take their time and generally are inventing everything every time because it is always new to us.  I'm not very good with my hands. Not at all.  I'm 60 and at earlier stages in my life when I've attempted hand crafts the results were, well, ugly.  Your skills may be at one level but my eye-hand skills are definitely not there.  I have to compensate for everything. It's not a question of precision but a question of compensation. I know where how often I fail in eye-hand things and it is quite often. 

I watch woodworkers cut along straight lines with a jig saw or circular saw and then I watch as my saws wander away from or across the line.  Sure, I could stack up 50 or 100 boards and practice. But to what end?  Wouldn't gain me anything.  Or I could clamp a board down and use it as a fence.  But that is, as I've been told, just a training wheel and should be rejected in favor of hand operations.  A real woodworker can do it without the training wheel of a fence of any sort.  Heck, Chippendale furniture was built without power tools so you should be able to develop those skills, too!  

You're free to continue to fabricate more than just wood products. That's your privilege. But don't pretend that you have any sort of sound argument.

Don't think I don't listen to the advice. This has been gone over before I follow the advice as the budget allows. I can't go out right now and buy a new hybrid.  I've been offered a nice fence but that's not free.  So *in the mean time* I live with and work with what I have.  Get over it.

You think I should learn to hand joint an edge? As I said before, at this point there is no need. Should the need arise and should I suddenly develop the prowess required then I will consider it.  Not all skills are available to all. I won't ask you, when your computer crashes, to open regedit and fix it. Or to write a grep.  Or to delve into philosophical and theological questions (try the solas, divine simplicity, or federal headship on for size).  Oh, you might be able to do some of it. 

What I won't give you words masquerading as help that come across as merely complaints that what I am doing is not the way it's been done for 200+ years so I shouldn't be doing it if I'm not following lock-step.

I have thanked those people whose criticisms were both critical and constructive. I have only been negative to those who act as though I work for them. Tough cookies.

There have been potential employers for whom I have chosen not to work after an interview. They were either looking for rote coders without minds or something else. I have interview them as much as they have interviewed me. When a manager answers questions with criticism it's time to leave. He's a jerk. (And I have.)

4 minutes ago, Llama said:

... because you think you have it all figured out.

... No, you'd then argue that you need to make a bigger one. Jointing a board takes less than a minute, far less than a minute in most cases.

... But then you wouldn't have anything to argue about.

If you aren't willing to reevaluate your procedures ...

... Since this one is clearly a turd, I hoped you had moved on. 

... Instead you seem hellbent on proving your contraption has some value.

This is the presumption and arrogance that bothers me.  Again, criticism is ok. I've noted and accepted that which was specific even though strongly-worded.  I've found other problems with it myself which have not been mentioned -- closing the vise too tight can make the top spread, thus ruining the available edge.

I've also stated my plans for it -- short-term.

Really, though, why would *anyone* hand plane when you can just flip an switch and do it in a second? Why do it the hard way when the *right* way is only a few steps to the switch? 

***

I have all the time in the world to learn. I have little patience for bad attitudes per the quotations provided above.

[Gilgaron]

So without your channel, this is a flat version of a miter jack in use, then?  Why not just use the vice jaws themselves as the reference surface in that case?

[collinb]

Just now, Gilgaron said:

So without your channel, this is a flat version of a miter jack in use, then?  Why not just use the vice jaws themselves as the reference surface in that case?

Thought about that at first. They're plywood.  Too hard on the blade edge.  And the whole top would need replaced after a couple instances of work being done.  That's why blocks seem best, at least to me.  While I need them.

[Gilgaron]

2 minutes ago, collinb said:

Thought about that at first. They're plywood.  Too hard on the blade edge.  And the whole top would need replaced after a couple instances of work being done.  That's why blocks seem best, at least to me.  While I need them.

If you use it like a miter jack then you don't run the blade on the reference surface, just the body of the plane.  You'd then skew the plane to control the width of cut. 

[Janello]

11 minutes ago, collinb said:

Well, I'm not working for you.  That's probably a good thing.  I've had a successful career in IT where people take their time and generally are inventing everything every time because it is always new to us.  I'm not very good with my hands. Not at all.  I'm 60 and at earlier stages in my life when I've attempted hand crafts the results were, well, ugly.  Your skills may be at one level but my eye-hand skills are definitely not there.  I have to compensate for everything. It's not a question of precision but a question of compensation. I know where how often I fail in eye-hand things and it is quite often. 

I watch woodworkers cut along straight lines with a jig saw or circular saw and then I watch as my saws wander away from or across the line.  Sure, I could stack up 50 or 100 boards and practice. But to what end?  Wouldn't gain me anything.  Or I could clamp a board down and use it as a fence.  But that is, as I've been told, just a training wheel and should be rejected in favor of hand operations.  A real woodworker can do it without the training wheel of a fence of any sort.  Heck, Chippendale furniture was built without power tools so you should be able to develop those skills, too!  

You're free to continue to fabricate more than just wood products. That's your privilege. But don't pretend that you have any sort of sound argument.

Don't think I don't listen to the advice. This has been gone over before I follow the advice as the budget allows. I can't go out right now and buy a new hybrid.  I've been offered a nice fence but that's not free.  So *in the mean time* I live with and work with what I have.  Get over it.

You think I should learn to hand joint an edge? As I said before, at this point there is no need. Should the need arise and should I suddenly develop the prowess required then I will consider it.  Not all skills are available to all. I won't ask you, when your computer crashes, to open regedit and fix it. Or to write a grep.  Or to delve into philosophical and theological questions (try the solas, divine simplicity, or federal headship on for size).  Oh, you might be able to do some of it. 

What I won't give you words masquerading as help that come across as merely complaints that what I am doing is not the way it's been done for 200+ years so I shouldn't be doing it if I'm not following lock-step.

I have thanked those people whose criticisms were both critical and constructive. I have only been negative to those who act as though I work for them. Tough cookies.

There have been potential employers for whom I have chosen not to work after an interview. They were either looking for rote coders without minds or something else. I have interview them as much as they have interviewed me. When a manager answers questions with criticism it's time to leave. He's a jerk. (And I have.)

This is the presumption and arrogance that bothers me.  Again, criticism is ok. I've noted and accepted that which was specific even though strongly-worded.  I've found other problems with it myself which have not been mentioned -- closing the vise too tight can make the top spread, thus ruining the available edge.

I've also stated my plans for it -- short-term.

Really, though, why would *anyone* hand plane when you can just flip an switch and do it in a second? Why do it the hard way when the *right* way is only a few steps to the switch? 

***

I have all the time in the world to learn. I have little patience for bad attitudes per the quotations provided above.

Again, you're missing the point. No one really cares about talking you out of it. If you use it and it helps you then go for it !. And no one is holding a gun to your head saying to learn old school way or else!!

It's the fact that you argue every single piece of advise as if you know more. Everything that eric said, you numbered and had a rebuttal lined up. You did NOT start this conversation as this thing works for me but probably won't for most. You defended this as if it was the best thing since sliced bread for all woodworkers to behold and then insinuated that anyone who disagreed is an elitist baffoon. 

[collinb]

Just now, Gilgaron said:

If you use it like a miter jack then you don't run the blade on the reference surface, just the body of the plane.  You'd then skew the plane to control the width of cut. 

Yes, but wouldn't the blade have to drive over the edge to make the cut? That would require a pretty precise movement of the plane.

[JosephThomas]

8 minutes ago, collinb said:

then I watch as my saws wander away from or across the line.  Sure, I could stack up 50 or 100 boards and practice. But to what end?  Wouldn't gain me anything.

I don't care to weigh in on anything else in this thread, and I don't want to pile on... but this statement is just false. No one is going to say you must cut wood a certain way, but practice will make you better, because hand-eye coordination isn't just about talent, it's also a function of muscle memory. If you choose to cut wood with machines, or with jigs/guides/etc, that's up to you... but being that this is a forum with information for everyone, beginners included, it would be a shame to leave comments like this uncorrected lest a newbie see it and think they "must" give up if they can't do something right the first time.

[Janello]

7 minutes ago, Janello said:

I have all the time in the world to learn. I have little patience for bad attitudes per the quotations provided above.

As I have little patience for a beginner telling anyone who has more experience they are part of the problem not the solution when they offer intelligent advise. 

[h3nry]

Colin, If your little jig works for you then I've got nothing against it - but if you want to improve your planing and sawing skills, then jigs like this aren't the answer ... do yourself a favour and build a better workbench - I started out with just a workmate, and it really doesn't help.

[Gilgaron]

7 minutes ago, collinb said:

Yes, but wouldn't the blade have to drive over the edge to make the cut? That would require a pretty precise movement of the plane.

The plane won't fall into any nicks you make in the reference surface, a little bit of chewed up edge won't be an issue. 

[collinb]

1 minute ago, Janello said:

Again, you're missing the point. No one really cares about talking you out of it. If you use it and it helps you then go for it !. And no one is holding a gun to your head saying to learn old school way or else!!

It's the fact that you argue every single piece of advise as if you know more. Everything that eric said, you numbered and had a rebuttal lined up. You did NOT start this conversation as this thing works for me but probably won't for most. You defended this as if it was the best thing since sliced bread for all woodworkers to behold and then insinuated that anyone who disagreed is an elitist baffoon. 

That's a truckload.

So what if I'm excited about my gizmo? No skin off your nose.

Just now, JosephThomas said:

I don't care to weigh in on anything else in this thread, and I don't want to pile on... but this statement is just false. No one is going to say you must cut wood a certain way, but practice will make you better, because hand-eye coordination isn't just about talent, it's also a function of muscle memory. If you choose to cut wood with machines, or with jigs/guides/etc, that's up to you... but being that this is a forum with information for everyone, beginners included, it would be a shame to leave comments like this uncorrected lest a newbie see it and think they "must" give up if they can't do something right the first time.

Sure they are. But to be fair it's more like "no training wheels" or the negative " you must not cut wood that way" because "making gizmos is a waste of time," "you're spinning your wheels," which really boils down to "Nobody else is doing it so stop it or you're fired."

That question of muscle memory is persuasive. Thanks for bringing it up. Wife and I have taken dance classes. I enjoy a waltz or a foxtrot. Maybe someday a quickstep.  It takes some people a month and they're gliding around the floor.  Took me a year. Wife is still working on it. Some people after a decade are still shuffling their feet. Part is muscle memory part but another part is a person's general athleticism.  You don't want to see my handwriting.

1 minute ago, Janello said:

As I have little patience for a beginner telling anyone who has more experience they are part of the problem not the solution when they offer intelligent advise. 

If only that were what you have been doing. Haven't read anything like that from either of you as yet. Except, of course, (a) spend some money on new/better equipment (since that's what everyone else does so you should, too), (b) tuning up less-than-optimum equipment is a waste of time (it would be for me so it must be for you, too), and (c) don't do it that way because you're not solving a problem (and even if you that's not really what's important). The language has been quite clear.

**

All said, something that affects online conversations is termed "internet personality," though there may now be newer language to describe the condition. What we see, or think we see, in a person's writing may not actually be the case. It is easy to read into others by the way they write without having ever met the person.  @Eric & @Janello might be the nicest guys in the world that I'd love to spend hours with.  But online communications miss so much. It is generally impossible to connect intimately with another person online.  That's my concern about reading into my words things which are there.  And it probably affects me as I quote apparently offensive words and phrases that may or may not be intended as such.  So I would encourage generosity in language.  Life is too short to be any of offensive, irrational, or otherwise manipulative. We don't need to walk on egg shells but we do need to show consideration. 

[Janello]

6 minutes ago, collinb said:

We don't need to walk on egg shells but we do need to show consideration. 

Then practice what you preach ! You have been nothing but arrogant and condescending toward us as if we have no damn clue what we are talking about. You didn't once say, you may be right...you had a rebuttal for every single word spoken by the two of us. 

You called Eric elitist and Purist when the man was just trying to explain the correct way of doing such an operation. 

You shrugged off Mel with technical terms, totally ignored Shane, and only speak to those that are "on board" with your plan.

 

[Llama]

 

3 minutes ago, collinb said:

We don't need to walk on egg shells but we do need to show consideration. 

This is a two way street Collin.

[Janello]

12 minutes ago, collinb said:

That's a truckload.

So what if I'm excited about my gizmo? No skin off your nose.

No, it's not a truck load...I encourage you to go back and re-read this thread... and every time someone disagreed with you, notice what you posted. 

This quote is a prime example. 

[drzaius]

Eric is blunt, to the point, and opinionated. But elitist & purist? Where does that come from?