So I went ahead and made it.


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Oh the ego.    

Then practice what you preach ! You have been nothing but arrogant and condescending toward us as if we have no damn clue what we are talking about. You didn't once say, you may be right...you had a r

But the 2 faces in the 3rd photo are clearly not square. There is a gap towards the right end of the square ruler.

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7 minutes ago, Janello said:

Collin, that pink hat does nothing for your complextion, and I thought Eric shaved off the beard?

Your avatar looks like Joshua Gomez. :-)

 

56 minutes ago, Eric. said:

I'm all for innovation.  What you're doing is not innovating, you're banging your head against a wall.  There's a reason this jig is not used by anyone anywhere...it's because you've come up with a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. 

Seriously, woodworkers have been using hand planes for hundreds (thousands?) of years...you have to ask yourself why your idea is not in use.  Besides, there are already two better alternatives to not being able to freehand a square edge, and here they are...

It seems more common to pursue the plane attachment approach

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/an-awesome-edge-jointing-jig

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/joinery/cheating-at-jointing-edges

http://www.startwoodworking.com/post/quick-trick-jointing-boards-hand

Two blocks of wood on a vise is not complicated. It worked first time. It was fast to assemble and fast to use. 

Maybe, just maybe, I need these things to learn the craft.

(I've spent 30 years in IT, a craft that I taught myself through the process of understanding this thing called "best practices." But even those have changed over time. What was a best practice in 1990 may not be today. And even in the arena of best practices there are best and best-best ways.  For instance, the two common ways to write a data handling routine. The first is to build exceptions throughout the routine to handle data exceptions and with them program exceptions based on data issues.  That's the way most people write code. My approach is to filter data at the beginning of a routine and then process. It reduces error handling and results in a smoother and often faster process.  But it may take longer to set up because I have to understand the data first.  Both are acceptable.  The former method ends up putting cryptic error messages on the user's screen; the latter just gets the job done. The point is that it doesn't matter what the common practice is.  Beginners almost always do things one way and experienced people another. It's a learning process. I don't demean novice developers but I do make suggestions and then let them learn.)

The elitism of a purist attitude is something seen in other arenas. There's always one in the crowd. Those persons are generally termed "cage ready." 

19 minutes ago, C Shaffer said:

... To think it error or a lack of precision is to miss that it is carefully planned and executed. Where tolerances are loose I think is the language you are looking for  tolerances are only loose in hidden areas. Glue joints are not typically hidden just to hide them  

To constantly beat the match planing drum is to ignore some other common instances where a square edge is desired. It only applies to pieces you intend to glue edge to edge. I think you are chasing your tail, but am not entirely certain that the best arguments are being made against or for. Collin, you assume your way faster because of what you see on videos. Consider the thought that they are not working in the most efficient way possible while attempting to film. Also consider that after practice, checking with a square becomes less frequent. They are teaching beginners. Also consider, most of the guys commenting here are not milling edges by hand very often. That is why we buy the yellow thing Eric posted. 

Except he did it on two pieces intended to be visible.  I understand what you're saying that these shows and videos are instructional and do not reflect shop production.  Still it seems odd to teach looseness (loose or sloppy tolerances perhaps?) as a practice. Perhaps some teachers should not be followed?

Again, I've been watching lots of stuff. Maybe too much  I wonder how frequently some might take a hand plane to finish their joint after using the power planer, and whether this is a common situation?

I'll keep looking for an affordable yellow thing, even if perhaps it turns out to be a blue or cream-colored thing.  Then I'll paint it.

***

I'll keep working on the stuff I'm building.  And I'll keep trying to make things easier to do *given the tools I have available.*

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My intention was not to bash Collin's question. But there is a larger issue here that is a common theme in many of Collin's threads.

I recognize it because I too am prone to it; that is the tendency to approach a task always thinking there is a better way. When no better way is apparent, you begin to devise some Goldbergesque method or gadget & then convince yourself it's better. Been guilty of it myself many times. 

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1 minute ago, collinb said:

(I've spent 30 years in IT, a craft that I taught myself through the process of understanding this thing called "best practices." But even those have changed over time.

Yes, but this is not a relevant analogy because best practice in IT changes with the speed of a lightning bolt.  Every day the technology evolves faster than people can keep up.  It's the total opposite with woodworking, which is an ancient craft, and which evolves at a freaking snail's pace.  There's no reason to think, as a novice, that you have somehow solved some problem that has eluded master woodworkers for centuries.  You haven't, and that's what we're trying to explain.  It only becomes demeaning when you refuse to listen.

No one is being elitist...I make rudimentary jigs out of plywood and scraps constantly...it's part of woodworking and I fully embrace it.  The difference?  They're all useful.

Also, here's a tip...when you take the position: "I know nothing, but I'm going to argue with you anyway"...people get frustrated and snippy.  At least I do.  When you make a post, I'm gonna give you an honest opinion about it.  I won't call your projects ugly because that's just mean and unhelpful.  But when you come up with a bad idea, I'm gonna say so and I'm gonna tell you why.  Because that's what forums are for...to exchange ideas.  You offered yours, and I offered mine.  If it's "elitist" to disagree with you, who's elitist now?

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6 minutes ago, Mike. said:

Well Collin I will agree with one thing, I am surprisedhow often the talking heads hand plane an edge after it comes off a jointer.  I think they do this for psychological comfort or to maintain their street cred with the hand tool folks.   Keep in mind people like Woodcraft/Wood River sponsor guys like Tommy, so he needs to demonstrate their stuff.   

99% of the time I get a seamless joint (see what I did there @Cliff) right off my jointer.  If it dips below 99% I know it is time to retune.  Occasionally some sqirrely grain on tear out prone species like maple might need a little help, but that should be the exception.   

I'm just pleased I didn't spell it "seem" - I have no regrets.

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29 minutes ago, Eric. said:

#1 Yes, but this is not a relevant analogy because best practice in IT changes with the speed of a lightning bolt.  Every day the technology evolves faster than people can keep up.  It's the total opposite with woodworking, which is an ancient craft, and which evolves at a freaking snail's pace.  #2 There's no reason to think, as a novice, that you have somehow solved some problem that has eluded master woodworkers for centuries.  You haven't, and that's what we're trying to explain.  It only becomes demeaning when you refuse to listen.

#3 No one is being elitist...I make rudimentary jigs out of plywood and scraps constantly...it's part of woodworking and I fully embrace it.  The difference?  They're all useful.

Also, here's a tip...when you take the position: #4 "I know nothing, but I'm going to argue with you anyway"...people get frustrated and snippy.  At least I do.  When you make a post, I'm gonna give you an honest opinion about it.  I won't call your projects ugly because that's just mean and unhelpful.  But when you come up with a bad idea, I'm gonna say so and I'm gonna tell you why.  Because that's what forums are for...to exchange ideas.  You offered yours, and I offered mine.  #5 If it's "elitist" to disagree with you, who's elitist now?

#1. No, they don't.

#2. Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the attitude and motivation you *think* I have over the attitude and motivation that I *really* have. There might be a difference.

#3. So condescension b/c I've not yet learned a particular skill is being generous?

#4. No, it's "I'm figuring things out and this is where I'm at".  You can misinterpret and misrepresent all you want. That's your privilege. But it is not endearing.

#5. Never said that. But such a conclusion conveys no surprise.

8 minutes ago, Mike. said:

Well Collin I will agree with one thing, I am surprised how often the talking heads hand plane an edge after it comes off a jointer.  I think they do this for psychological comfort or to maintain their street cred with the hand tool folks.   Keep in mind people like Woodcraft/Wood River sponsor guys like Tommy, so he needs to demonstrate their stuff.   

99% of the time I get a seamless joint (see what I did there @Cliff) right off my jointer.  If it dips below 99% I know it is time to retune.  Occasionally some sqirrely grain on tear out prone species like maple might need a little help, but that should be the exception.   

That's helpful.  Tx.

 

 

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I find it almost irresistible to reply point for point, but I will resist.

Make me waste my breath once...shame on you.  I read your blog yet I still try to reason with you...shame on me.  LOL  Later gater, and good luck with your tail chasing.

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2 hours ago, Janello said:

chili.PNG

I guess then my chili knot was really taking it to far. But I honestly don't see where anyone was bashing his question. 

I thought he meant edge jointing in general..he didn't specify the spring joint was his target question. 

Your chili dog was not there when I posted. I assume we were typing at close to the same time. I am however glad you posted your whereabouts. The drone had lost you. 

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Just now, C Shaffer said:

Your chili dog was not there when I posted. I assume we were typing at close to the same time. I am however glad you posted your whereabouts. The drone had lost you. 

I am not there anymore. I am surfing the internet incognito. in other news- I have this stuff that fills knots well. I will be on QVC with it tonight airing at midnight. The elitist group over at Lumber Socks said it couldn't be done, but they have no clue how well chili sticks to and blends in with wood. 

 

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Wow, another innovative way to square stuff.

There are 1000s of innovative ways to start a fire. I've seen people devote their entire lives to that pursuit. I just use a lighter, works 100% of the time. Then I can focus on roasting and spicing my chicken with the right ingredients, for an spectacular flavor.

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38 minutes ago, Brendon_t said:

Sooo.. I'd kind of like to hear more about this chili dog in knot incident John.. any chance of a play by play? 

I can tell you a little about it, but my patent lawyer advised I don't give away to much.. patent pending ya know. So here's what I can tell you. For small knots just strait up chili works and large knots onion is your friend. ITS NOT JUST ANY CHILI. The stewarts chili won't work long term.. but it did start the revelation. I can't give away the recipie. All i can say is it tastes as good as it works. So if you have a can of my wood filler in your shop and your wood is free of knots...you can also eat the stuff. 

I am also working on a way to flatten a board using lettuce. You guys with your elitist attitude can go ahead and laugh, but this works in MY shop and I don't really want your opinions. You asked about MY invention and if you don't want to subscribe, there are hundreds of other hungry woodworkers out there that would love a little chili and lettuce in their shops.  

I don't wanna get too crazy here giving away all my inventions that you won't probably appreciate anyway, but you guys might just end up putting my edible saw blades on your saws some day too. I am currently working on flavor names and so far have Maloofalicious and Krenovelty in the works. 

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I'm sorry to bust your britches but I've got an old can of NorMighty meat chili with a layer of dust on it in the shop. Your idea is terrible.  Mine is awesome. 

A small tip.  If your chunks overflow.  Let it fully dry.  Once cured, hit it with your ransom orbit sandwich. If the crust comes off,  you're pushing too hard. 

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5 minutes ago, wtnhighlander said:

@Collinb, could you perhaps post another photo of this jig thing, not so close up? I'm not sure I understand exactly what it is supposed to do.

Think router plane...reference surface on both sides of the region being cut. 

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That's what I gathered from the discussion, but the image was throwing me off.

Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Collin came up with a way that helps him plane a square edge, with the tools and skills at hand.

Go Collin! ?

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17 hours ago, Eric. said:

I find it almost irresistible to reply point for point, but I will resist.

Make me waste my breath once...shame on you.  I read your blog yet I still try to reason with you...shame on me.  LOL  Later gater, and good luck with your tail chasing.

I guess we all really do work with, and are limited by, the tools we have available. Again, I would love to discuss metaphysical questions with you, though certainly that's best off-line.

It really, really is very different from "tail chasing." It's more like grad school -- you have a goal. You have some direction. But you are free to both learn from others (dissertation) or to develop new ideas and concepts (thesis).   I know you think this may be silly but the approach has been beneficial. (I will admit that it is horribly slow.)  For instance, I seriously simplified the math of the 5-cut method.

iirc, it would normally be

Adjustment = CutError / 4 / (inches left/inches right)

but now, assuming left mounting point distance is 2x right mounting point distance.

Adjustment = CutError / 2

(there are a couple of other things here that I have forgotten, but again it's quite simple.)

Kept the method but avoided an overly-complex formula by doing one simple thing -- keeping the screw mounting distances positions at simple fractional distances from the cut.  I hadn't seen anyone else do that, though almost certainly someone has.

That said, I could have done it the old, tried-and-true way. But I'd rather rethink things: Not all that we take for granted is true.

 

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@Janello For filling really big knots, I hear adding a little cracker and cheddar cheese makes an almost epoxy like filler.

Colin, I get that you are wanting to create something that makes edge jointing easier and that is fine, but I for one think practicing freehand is best.  Your jig leaves me with one big question, how did you get the rails square?  Do you know they are square?  If you are having trouble getting things square freehand, I don't get how the jig will be square and you may be getting false results. 

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13 hours ago, wtnhighlander said:

@Collinb, could you perhaps post another photo of this jig thing, not so close up? I'm not sure I understand exactly what it is supposed to do.

 

13 hours ago, C Shaffer said:

Think router plane...reference surface on both sides of the region being cut. 

That's all.  Just blocking both sides square.

vise.jpg

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I think the issue is there are now many more places for errors to creep in.  If the Workmate has any wind to it, if the Workmate is sitting on a section of the floor that is not flat, if the blocking is not square, if the blocking is not seated the same way, if saw dust or other debris sits between the blocking and the Workmate, the first time your plane touches the blocking it is ruined.

This is an interesting idea, but not one that is practical IMO.  It is way too easy to square a piece up.

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Sure have a lot of criticism here, I'll add some more.

Learning how to square a board by hand takes some people more time than others. Some people just "get it", and others feel compelled to use jigs or a fence. The logic of using a fence or a jig to acheive a square edge is flawed from the beginning.

Here is why:

  • A fence rides on the material in which you are trying to work flat. So, one part of the thing has to be flat before the fence will register properly. 
  • Even if you are able to get a flat face in which the fence rides, poor technique will result in an edge that is not flat.
  • It takes more time to set these gimmicks up than it does to just plane the darn board

As for thinking you've come up with something unique, it isn't. It has all been done. Look at a miter shoot for reference. The difference being is the miter shoot has a real use. This is because miters are typically planed on endgrain, so they need support of the shoot.

If you feel good about this contraption, then it is worth it to you in your shop. Trying to convince anyone else how great the idea is will not get you anywhere.

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