Sandpaper, how long can you go?


Mark J

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I missed most of this and it has probably been said.  Trying to stretch your sandpaper beyond its useful life is a false economy.  You get poor results and spend more effort going back (or staying put) to get the job done right.

If you keep your eyes open you will find bargains in quality abrasives.  Most of my higher grit stuff comes from clearance sales of Klingspor, Northern Abrasives and so forth.  Retailers will carry the whole line but may not have the customer base to consume it.  At some point it goes on sale on the cheap.  Klinspor's bargain box items are another area to get top quality material for a good price.

Sales are great but, don't hesitate to stock up on (and pay for) your typical consumables from a quality maker.  Norton 3X is a superior product for a home center but, once you use a professional grade product you will change your standards.  There is an abrasive composition,backing type, weight and attachment method for almost any purpose you can think of. 

Tailor your abrasive selection to the job with the same care you select a chisel for a task.  There are moments for us all where we have that "ah-ha" moment or find ourselves asking "why did I wait so long to do that".  Enjoying the result of a carefully selected abrasive for the task at hand was certainly one of those for me.

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2 hours ago, gee-dub said:

I missed most of this and it has probably been said.  Trying to stretch your sandpaper beyond its useful life is a false economy.  You get poor results and spend more effort going back (or staying put) to get the job done right.

If you keep your eyes open you will find bargains in quality abrasives.  Most of my higher grit stuff comes from clearance sales of Klingspor, Northern Abrasives and so forth.  Retailers will carry the whole line but may not have the customer base to consume it.  At some point it goes on sale on the cheap.  Klinspor's bargain box items are another area to get top quality material for a good price.

Sales are great but, don't hesitate to stock up on (and pay for) your typical consumables from a quality maker.  Norton 3X is a superior product for a home center but, once you use a professional grade product you will change your standards.  There is an abrasive composition,backing type, weight and attachment method for almost any purpose you can think of. 

Tailor your abrasive selection to the job with the same care you select a chisel for a task.  There are moments for us all where we have that "ah-ha" moment or find ourselves asking "why did I wait so long to do that".  Enjoying the result of a carefully selected abrasive for the task at hand was certainly one of those for me.

So true. I've gone through many brands of sandpaper & discs & it sure is worth the cost to get the good stuff. I mostly use Klingspor because it's a quality product & I have good access to it. 

And buying in bulk is the way to go. A disc that costs over a dollar each in a 5 pack can be $.30 ea in a box of 100

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6 minutes ago, Mike. said:

I just sanded 2 panels, each 14" wide by 40" long, both sides.  I went through 3 80 discs, 2 100 discs and 2 120 discs.   My drum sander can't come any sooner :)

That sounds about like what I would have used too.  Am I crazy to think that's ridiculous?  That's probably $10 worth of abrasives for two panels.  Seems excessive to me.

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5 minutes ago, Mike. said:

I just sanded 2 panels, each 14" wide by 40" long, both sides.  I went through 3 80 discs, 2 100 discs and 2 120 discs.   My drum sander can't come any sooner :)

Using Mike's project as an example, and taking into account the time that it takes to change the paper on a ds, for those with experience using a ds, how many of these 3 grits would you use on the drum sander?

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I keep 120 on my DS.  Anything coarser than that is a freaking hog that leaves deep lines.  Anything finer starts to clog and burn pretty easily, especially on harder species.  I just did a bubinga panel last night and I had to take off only the tiniest turn at a time or there was burning.

The drum sander is not a finish sander...it doesn't replace the ROS, it just gets pre-finish sanding grunt work out of the way quickly.  So cleaning up shop-sawn veneers or leveling panels, it's great for that.

I still usually start my ROS at 80 grit after the drum sander because the lines can be slow to get out with 120.  The drum sander always sands more aggressively than the ROS and because there is no random orbital motion, 120 grit on the drum sander is something closer to 40 grit on a ROS, IMO.

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10 minutes ago, Mike. said:

I just sanded 2 panels, each 14" wide by 40" long, both sides.  I went through 3 80 discs, 2 100 discs and 2 120 discs.   My drum sander can't come any sooner :)

When i sanded the Ash bar top in my recent build i used 2.5 sheets of 120, 2 sheets of 150, and 1 sheet of 180. I started with a surface strait off the planer. The top was 24" x 72".

 

14 minutes ago, Eric. said:

I keep 120 on my DS.  Anything coarser than that is a freaking hog that leaves deep lines.  Anything finer starts to clog and burn pretty easily, especially on harder species.  I just did a bubinga panel last night and I had to take off only the tiniest turn at a time or there was burning.

The drum sander is not a finish sander...it doesn't replace the ROS, it just gets pre-finish sanding grunt work out of the way quickly.  So cleaning up shop-sawn veneers or leveling panels, it's great for that.

I still usually start my ROS at 80 grit after the drum sander because the lines can be slow to get out with 120.  The drum sander always sands more aggressively than the ROS and because there is no random orbital motion, 120 grit on the drum sander is something closer to 40 grit on a ROS, IMO.

How long does the paper last on the drum sander? I realize it's probably hard to measure but is it like a replace per large project or odes it last a couple projects?

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Yeah it depends on the size of the project.  It also depends what grit you're using (coarser will last longer) and how aggressively you're sanding (the more aggressive, the shorter the life).  If you get greedy and end up burning the paper, it's over.  Good DC is also critical...not for health reasons but if you don't clear all the waste it will clog the paper immediately and it'll burn.

I find if I take tiny nibbles at a time with 120 grit, the paper lasts a decent amount of time.  I don't know how to quantify "decent."  As soon as I try to take too much at once, I'm screwed.  Dense, oily woods will also dramatically reduce the life of the paper.

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11 minutes ago, Eric. said:

Yeah it depends on the size of the project.  It also depends what grit you're using (coarser will last longer) and how aggressively you're sanding (the more aggressive, the shorter the life).  If you get greedy and end up burning the paper, it's over.  Good DC is also critical...not for health reasons but if you don't clear all the waste it will clog the paper immediately and it'll burn.

I find if I take tiny nibbles at a time with 120 grit, the paper lasts a decent amount of time.  I don't know how to quantify "decent."  As soon as I try to take too much at once, I'm screwed.  Dense, oily woods will also dramatically reduce the life of the paper.

Coarser lasting longer is contradictory to my experience with sanders, flooring sanders to orbital. The HD flooring sanders are really good at telling you when the paper is shot and every time I've sanded a floor the coarse grits get half the mileage of the fine grits.

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Pigtails are not caused by the paper unless there is some crud stuck on it. Pigtails are cause mostly by bad tecnique. If too much pressure is used then the sander stops orbiting thus creating pigtails.

I only use granat and find it lasts a long time. Maybe I'm just too cheap and use it too long. The higher grits I change more often but the 80-120 really seems to last long. I normally change 180 paper a little more often.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

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36 minutes ago, shaneymack said:

Pigtails are not caused by the paper unless there is some crud stuck on it. Pigtails are cause mostly by bad tecnique. If too much pressure is used then the sander stops orbiting thus creating pigtails.

I only use granat and find it lasts a long time. Maybe I'm just too cheap and use it too long. The higher grits I change more often but the 80-120 really seems to last long. I normally change 180 paper a little more often.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

I never use more pressure than the weight of the sander.  I keep my suction on turtle.  I keep the sander balanced.  I'm not an idiot.  I still get pigtails.

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Its also species dependent.  Pigtails really show up on maple, very difficult to see on walnut or species with a strong grain.  Cherry is in the middle.  

Same as E, same technique, I still get pig tails with my 150/3. Two things have helped:

1) I rais the grain with a damp, steamed cloth at between 120 and 150 grit.  It has a few benefits: 1) cleans the dust out of the pores, 2) highlights any problems and 3) if there was any slight tear out/dents left from machining it might swell the grain enough clear those up too.  I don't try to scrape that stuff away until I do my grain raising step.   

2) On maple I use abranet for 150 and 180.  It clears up the pigtails.  I don't like abranet for all grits because your velcro wears down fast.

I don't think it is bad technique.  I think it is discriminating eyes and species dependent.  

 

Guess the common denominator is the 150/3, which I do not own. I can sand maple all day with any of my festool sanders and not get pigtails.

It can definitely be bad technique in many cases. Maybe not yours, maybe the sander is junk? Who knows. If you are doing everything right and still get swirls, I'd try another sander.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

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4 hours ago, gee-dub said:

I missed most of this and it has probably been said.  Trying to stretch your sandpaper beyond its useful life is a false economy.  

Good point, but tossing the stuff out pre-maturely is a false economy, too.  I think to this point I have been more guilty of tossing too soon than too late.  

Until recently I had only a couple of sanding blocks (no ROS, yet), so every grit change necessitated a paper change.  Then when returning to a coarser grit later I would look at the used paper and be reluctant to re-install it.  

Now I have several identical 3M blocks each for a different grit.  It's a lot faster and easier to move from one grit to another, but it does leave open the question of when to change paper. I can see from my own work that I get more use out of the paper than I was previously doing, but I will have to develop a sense of when the the paper is done and I've moved into the false economy on the other side.  That will come with time and trial.  

 

4 hours ago, gee-dub said:

If you keep your eyes open you will find bargains in quality abrasives. ...

Tailor your abrasive selection to the job with the same care you select a chisel for a task.  There are moments for us all where we have that "ah-ha" moment or find ourselves asking "why did I wait so long to do that".  Enjoying the result of a carefully selected abrasive for the task at hand was certainly one of those for me.

More good advice.  I have been buying whatever True Value was selling, but I am already seeing that there is a big difference in quality between different brands.  

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21 minutes ago, shaneymack said:

Guess the common denominator is the 150/3, which I do not own. I can sand maple all day with any of my festool sanders and not get pigtails.

It can definitely be bad technique in many cases. Maybe not yours, maybe the sander is junk? Who knows. If you are doing everything right and still get swirls, I'd try another sander.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

 

11 minutes ago, Mike. said:

what do you use for finish sanding?  150/5? 

 

I'm using a 150/5.  I had the same problem with my 150/3 so I sold it and bought the /5.  The /5 is better but it still happens.  I think the paper just doesn't last long enough and gets boogered up too quickly.  It's a catch-22...increase the suction and help clear the debris, but then it creates too much friction and you can get pigtails because of that too...or turn the suction all the way down to eliminate that extra pressure but then you get schmutz buildup that causes pigtails.

The only real fix I've found is switch discs often.  Which costs way too much money.  They either need to improve their paper or drop the prices on their paper.  If and when this sander ever dies I'll be switching everything sanding to Mirka.

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Eric, I have a Dewalt 5" that I'll trade you for your pigtails.  I'll even throw in my 100'ish 5" discs, which we now all know you would need!  :D

Interestingly enough, I don't get pigtails with this sander.  I haven't even really thought about it, but it's a non-issue.  Maybe I'll sell the Festool when I get it to buy a 6" Dewalt!  Seriously.

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8 minutes ago, bleedinblue said:

Eric, I have a Dewalt 5" that I'll trade you for your pigtails.  I'll even throw in my 100'ish 5" discs, which we now all know you would need!  :D

Interestingly enough, I don't get pigtails with this sander.  I haven't even really thought about it, but it's a non-issue.  Maybe I'll sell the Festool when I get it to buy a 6" Dewalt!  Seriously.

Bring it to the yard and I'll load you up with walnut for that bad boy! :rolleyes::D

In reality, it's not an insurmountable problem...I just have to go through more paper than I personally feel I should.  It's annoying but not really a huge deal.  With clean paper it's a lean mean sanding machine.  The Festool sanders are head and shoulders above all others with the exception of Mirka, in comfort, dust control, and general quality.  It's just that damn paper...

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I have a Ceros.

I did auto body work years ago and used the air powered DA sanders. I can tell you from experience. Once you get one you'll never look back. For wood, I had used all the cheap Porter Cable DA's, kept burning them out and buying another. 2 years ago I pulled the trigger on the ceros together with the vacuum...oh man it's fun to sand again.  

Hey man, fish hooks and pigtails can happen no matter what sander you buy. 

 

-Ace- 

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