Powermatic Table Saw

[Knifeguy]

Hello everyone,

I am a newbie and I need some good advice.  I came across a Powermatic model 66 for sale. It is 1982 vintage and it is in like new condition.  The saw has a 52" table and Biesemeyer fence with a router and lift built in.  The gentleman is asking $1000.00 for the saw.  Everything I have been able to find has told me this is an excellent quality saw.  Should I pull the trigger on this purchase or pass ?  Thank all of you for your help, I am happy to have joined this group, to date everyone has been wonderful.  I have been wanting to get into woodworking for many years now but life has always been in the way.  3 kids through college later I now have the opportunity to build and equip the shop I have always wanted.  Thanks again.

[wdwerker]

Even with the router and lift it sounds a bit high unless it was only used in a hobby shop. What router & lift and it's age would be a key decision item for me. A Porter Cable 7518 router is good. 

Ask if blades,miter gauge and a dado set are included. Any jigs would be a plus as well.

[minorhero]

Like new condition on a 35 year old saw is exceptionally unlikely. To me like new means just that, nothing wrong not even cosmetic issues. Even if the saw were never used it would still rust during that time and blemish the table.  If it we're actually like new with essentially no use you would still need to replace bearings if not done in the last 5-10 years because they would dry out all on their own. 

1k is high for such a saw. One reason being it lacks dust control and a riving knife both of which are basic safety features on any modern saw. If it really is in amazing condition with recently replaced bearings and you r area is light on good used alternatives I would think 700 would be a more appropriate top end price. If anything else is wrong 400-500 is.closer to the mark.

[Pwk5017]

Ill go against the grain and tell ya $1000 is kinda market price or below for that saw in my area. Does it have the cast iron extension table? If it has the big CI table and a router with lift, thats a good price. Maybe things are different for other people, but ive never seen a single phase 66 go for $400-500...ever. 3phase 66's usually dont sell for that low. Delta must have sold unisaws 10:1, because i see them much more often. Yes, i would agree that a used single phase unisaw is a $700 machine in fair condition. With that said, most would argue the 66 is a slightly heavier and better machine, so $900 is what i would price a base 66.  I would rather have an '82 PM66 that i had to swap bearings on over a new grizzly, i think ill end my opinion there. 

 

Edit: Yep, just did a nationwide search and single phase 66's in the northeast are holding steady at $1250-1800. I probably looked at 25 postings on craigslist. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Pwk5017
did some homework

[drzaius]

No riving knife would be a deal killer for me, especially if I was inexperienced. I've used table saws without riving knives all my life & after having one with for the last 2 years, I would not have one without.

[Knifeguy]

Thank all of you for your insight.  The riving knife is something that I would have never thought of and you make very a valid point.  I do not know the market everywhere else, I know that here in So Cal this is slightly lower than average for the saw and table and that does not include the router and lift.  I have watched the saw run and it is very smooth. It is 220 single phase so I don't have to worry about the whole 3 phase problem if I were to purchase it.  The top is in beautiful condition, it has not been sanded or anything like that and has no rust what so ever.  The gentleman that owns it is the second owner, fortunately both owners have always kept the top and table coated. The fence has no damage and has never been run into the blade.  Both previous owners were hobbiest and the saw has only seen minimal use.  The bearings are something else to consider but how often do they need to be replaced ?  I would rather have an older good quality saw than a new import.  The safety issue is what I am going to have to think about.  Did they ever make a riving knife for that saw ?  Are they still available ???  Would I be better off looking for a Delta ? I told the gentleman that I would get back to him by next Friday.  This is not an impulse buy, this is a huge decision and I sincerely thank all of you for your help.  I only plan to purchase these tools one time and would rather spend a little more up front than buy a "beginner" tool only to have to upgrade it later.  Please let me know what you think.

Thank you

 

[Pwk5017]

I probably wouldnt dilly dally on the decision. As I alluded to above, i think that saw is on the low end of market value and should sell quickly. Its not a screaming Tom Craigslist deal, but i do think its a good one. What is the router and lift make and model? I know a lot of people like new machines with warranties, but i strongly believe in quality used. 

 

If you buy quality bearings and install them correctly without damaging the seal etc. then they last 10-20 years. 

 

A splitter is 80% as good as a riving knife. 99% of non-through cuts for me are with a dado stack, and a riving knife does nothing there. My splitter bevels with my blade, so once again no advantage there. Riving knives fit very close into the blade, but it is also extremely unlikely that you have material that pinches down on your blade 1.25" after a cut. I would absolutely take a riving knife any day of the week, but my biesemeyer splitter performs all the safety precautions i need. Not having a splitter/riving knife is a problem. Having a splitter in place of a riving knife is really splitting hairs...

[Tom King]

I'd buy it right now, and don't even need it, but I'd take the router out, and use it somewhere else.  I've never used a saw with a riving knife, or a splitter, so that doesn't bother me at all-43 years as a pro, and probably a decade before that.  I have wished many times that I had bought a 66 instead of the 62 that I bought new in 1973.  If I owned that saw, I wouldn't trade it for 2 Sawstops.

 

[Eric.]

2 hours ago, Tom King said:

I wouldn't trade it for 2 Sawstops

I would. 

But I agree it's a good saw for a good price if you're a vintage kind of guy and you don't mind not having the riving knife.  I wouldn't want to be without one but if I were just starting out and I stumbled upon that saw...I'd probably bite.  PM66 is a better saw than the PM2000....and a WAY better saw than any Grizzly.

[wtnhighlander]

I'd trade it for two Sawstops, sell them, and buy a new PM 2000 or Northfield #4.

[Mick S]

I'll second Eric's opinion. It's a good deal on a very good saw. I owned an '82 model 66 and it was my favorite saw until I got my Sawstop. Riving knives are a very significant improvement in safety, no doubt. Like most 66 owners, I removed the splitter immediately. I contend that a good saw with a good fence and no riving knife is pretty much as safe as a so-so saw with a riving knife. I have a SS, but I'm every bit as careful as I was when I had my 66. A riving knife won't keep you from reaching over the top of the blade and catching it. My SS was 3 1/2 times the price of the 66 you're considering. 

I'd bite.

 

[Knifeguy]

Guys Thank you all, I greatly appreciate the advice.  After reading all of your comments I called him and told him I would take the saw. I will actually pick it up tomorrow afternoon.  Everything I could find was telling me that it is a great saw however not having any experience I wanted to see what those that do know had to say.  All of you have been a great help.  Now that I have decided on the saw what do all of you thing about Microjig's splitter set up ?   Are there better out there ?  When I did a google search that is what came up.  

[Tom King]

I bought the Microjig splitters some years ago, along with a bunch of other shop do-dads, when I needed to spend some money before the end of the year to drop a bracket.   I never got around to using them, and probably won't.  I have both the plastic and metal versions, as well as the jigs for drilling.   PM me your address, and I'll send them to you.  I've offered them for sale before, and no takers, so it's not like I'm out anything.  I'll be glad for you to have them.  They're just taking up room in my Tablesaw toolbox for nothing.

[Knifeguy]

I just want to say Thank you again for your help and Tom I want to Thank you for your generosity.  I have always heard that woodworkers are the best people and that has been my experience here for sure.  I will post some pictures of my new saw just as soon as I can.

[minorhero]

Congratulations on the new saw! Some advice for you now that you have a saw on the way as it were.

Unless the saw comes with a solid zero clearance table insert you are going to want to buy/make one. 

Plan on replacing the bearings in the saw right away. If the bearings have not been replaced before (and chances are frankly good they have never been touched) then you need to do it. If you don't you run the risk of destroying your arbor/bracket when the bearings go and there are no new replacement for that, only folks parting out their old machines which is clearly something that only is available some of the time. There is no way to tell if the bearings are good unless you completely remove them from the saw, even some of the crunchiest bearings will spin "smooth" while they are still installed. And once removed you are better off replacing them with new. The good news is that bearings are pretty cheap. 10$ or less per bearing is pretty common. You can go to owwm.org for a forum devoted to old wood working machines and there is lots of information there on how replace bearings etc.

If the motor is original to the saw you will also want to replace the bearings in the motor, though that is less problematic only because if the motor bearings go and destroy the motor you can always buy a new motor, it will of course set you back half the price of the saw most likely, but its at least an option that is always available.

For transport bring some straps if you have them and a heavy moving blanket (or in pinch an old comforter you don't mind if it gets destroyed). There are two lines of thought for how to move these saws. One line of thought is to move them upright. The other line of thought is to move them on their back. Either way your first step is to remove the wings and fence. There are more then a few people out there who have moved these saws with the motor attached and as a result cracked the motor bracket when they went over a bump. When I bought my 1950's unisaw I definitely came prepared to remove the motor and re-attach it after the move. This of course meant cutting the electrical cord and redoing it later. But I felt it was better then ending up with cracked motor bracket which again is a non-replaceable part unless you find someone parting out their machine. If you have the muscle power its an option to move them upright. But if its just you either on pickup or delivery then the easiest way is to move the saw is on its back. After the wings and fence are removed position the saw so its next to the tailgate/hatchback. Then drape the moving blanket over the bumper area. Then tilt the saw up into the body of your vehicle. If you do it right the moving blanket will provide an easy cushion/way to slide the saw into the vehicle. This way you can move the saw with just one person (assuming you don't have a bad back) because you are using the tailgate/bumper to pivot the saw onto its back. 

If this is your first table saw then you will also NEED a push stick. You can make these of course or buy them. But its required equipment if you like your fingers.

This saw has zero dust collection. Some people modify them through various homemade dust shrouds but regardless of your solution you will also need a respirator which will always be needed whenever the saw is in use. Sorry if you already know this, just want you to be safe.

That's pretty much it, good luck and enjoy! Its a fun hobby!

[Tom King]

It is possible to get good dust collection with the old saws.  I stuffed cloth in the top to cabinet gaps, used blue masking tape everywhere else, and made a box over the motor with a slide in 12"x12" furnace fliter so the air is drawn in over the motor.  The blue masking tape is good for several reuses before another piece is slapped on the bottom of the tilt slot, when the saw needs to be tilted much.  I can even cut MDF, and not get any dust in the houses I work in.  I do use a 3hp DC, and dust is never a problem.  This is my portable saw.  It gets moved with a front end loader onto a trailer every year or two  Since this picture, I have put the original wing back on, did away with the router wing, since dust collection was so bad with the router, and I came up with a better solution.  I would never buy another HTC mobile base though, but this one has done way more moving than they ever intended.

[Patrick]

'Good' prices for cabinet saws vary by regions due to the cost for shipping.  I think you'd be better off using a Grizzly 1023 ($1300 or so) as your mark.  

You can watch the classifieds for several months to get an idea of what the going list prices are in your area.  Or, If you can find a used delta or PW, compare its price to the new 1023 and make your choice.  

In my area where Deltas run $1k and PW a little more, the 1023 makes sense.  

[Knifeguy]

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the input.  I actually bought the saw and have it loaded for the move.  I am very happy with this saw, no offense but I was looking for a good quality older saw.  I based this on the enormous amount of research I did prior to looking for equipment to purchase.  I know that it does not have all of the goodies that newer saws have but I have no doubt that it will run for the rest of my life.  Many here have given me great advice on how to get it serviced and tuned and Tom King was gracious enough to send me a set of splitters to make the saw even safer.  I want to say Thank You to all of you that took the time to respond to my post.  You are a Great bunch and I appreciate your help.  I have been occupied with our upcoming move but once I am settled in Washington I will be back here with you all.  I still have a lot of equipment to buy so I will have many more questions.

Thanks again

[Pwk5017]

On 7/16/2017 at 11:57 AM, Knifeguy said:

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the input.  I actually bought the saw and have it loaded for the move.  I am very happy with this saw, no offense but I was looking for a good quality older saw.  I based this on the enormous amount of research I did prior to looking for equipment to purchase.  I know that it does not have all of the goodies that newer saws have but I have no doubt that it will run for the rest of my life.  Many here have given me great advice on how to get it serviced and tuned and Tom King was gracious enough to send me a set of splitters to make the saw even safer.  I want to say Thank You to all of you that took the time to respond to my post.  You are a Great bunch and I appreciate your help.  I have been occupied with our upcoming move but once I am settled in Washington I will be back here with you all.  I still have a lot of equipment to buy so I will have many more questions.

Thanks again

When are we getting the pics?!

[Knifeguy]

Just as soon as I get to Washington and get it into the new shop.  The shipper wants more weight in the rear of the container which will actually be closest to the tractor rather than on the trailer axles.   Since the saw is one of the largest and heaviest items it needed to go in asap so that we can continue to pack the container.