Smoothing plane

[Tmize]

I know this has been discussed so many times but here we go again. I looking to upgrade to my ultimate smoothing plane. A lil background I’m mostly a handtool guy I use machines for roughing out work but bring everything down to final by hand. I’m fairly decent in reading grain and any where in a board that has that awful beautiful grain I use #80 cabinet scraper for no tear out. So my question is my #4 does a great job 90% of the time. I’ve always been a bevel down guy besides a couple block planes I don’t use much. I’m looking at either a LN 4 1/2 with a 50* or 55* frog or veritas bevel up smoother plane. Both seem to me are the best options of smoothing planes on the market right. I almost pulled the trigger on the LN the other day an got to thinking I’m I missing something not going bevel up. I have a full boat of planes already so I don’t really need the regrind the blade to do different tasks. It will be my go to plane for any kind of figured wood. 

[Chestnut]

If you are a bevel down guy don't consider the BU planes they will just leave you disappointed. I have 1 BU plane and it sits on the shelf 99.9% of the time.

I'd honestly suggest against a 4 1/2 if you want to do a higher angle frog. The 5 degree difference is enough to add some extra resistance adding the extra width and you'll get tired faster and probably get less work done than if you had the narrower plane. Also bronze body.... #rustnomore.

The 50 degree frog is enough of a departure from my Stanley #4 that it handles most all tear out. It's not going to do the trick on wood that have tear out when you look at them wrong. Though i don't know there is much you can do there other than a card scraper. The 55 degree is another step in the right direction but when i went to the LN hand tool event the sales guy told me that unless i worked with interlocked jungle woods all day every day it's not worth it.

That being said i firmly believe that the blade makes a HUGE difference. I have a PMV-11 in my type 15 Stanley #4 and only grab for my LN 50 degree #4 when i do work on curly cherry or curly maple. Other wise i use it as my keep as sharp as possible for those 2 difficult spots plane or that 10%.

If you can make it to a hand tool event you can get free shipping when you order there. Also if you are a member of the wood whisperer guild i'm pretty sure they have a 10% discount still. I see that they are having an event near me again. I'll probably go and buy myself a birthday gift from the government again like i did last year. Not sure what i'm going to go after this year though.

[rodger.]

I've got a No 5 and a No 7 that are both bevel up from Veritas. They are incredible planes. Would not hesitate to buy another one.

[Tmize]

The reason I was leaning towards the 4 1/2 was I’m a young bigger guy and  got big hands an the bigger 5 1/2,6,7 are more comfortable to me grip wise. And a don’t currently have a 4 1/2. But your reasoning makes sense to me  and kind along the way I was thinking. And I only work with American hard and softwoods

[Tmize]

3 minutes ago, rodger. said:

I've got a No 5 and a No 7 that are both bevel up from Veritas. They are incredible planes. Would not hesitate to buy another one.

I have a couple Veritas planes now side rabbet,routerplane, and love them amazing fit an finish. I’ve never owned LN but I’m sure I’ll be just as impressed

[wtnhighlander]

The LN bronze body certainly has advantages. I would suggest a try-before-buy approach, as far as the comfort factor goes. I have XL glove size hands, and a Stanley Sweetheart #4 is the most comfortable plane I own.

[Tmize]

Yea I would love to try them out side by side. Unless i find a hand tool event close by that would have both. The closest to look at LN is highland in Atlanta it’s only bout a two hour drive. I’m not sure about Veritas. 

[Chestnut]

20 minutes ago, Tmize said:

The reason I was leaning towards the 4 1/2 was I’m a young bigger guy and  got big hands an the bigger 5 1/2,6,7 are more comfortable to me grip wise. And a don’t currently have a 4 1/2. But your reasoning makes sense to me  and kind along the way I was thinking. And I only work with American hard and softwoods

So i have the Stanley #4 and the LN #4 and the LN #4 is more tailored to larger hands. My Stanley fits my hand awesome and the LN is a bit bulky for me. I have small hands though.  I will defiantly agree that my Stanley #4 is m most comfortable plane as well Ross. I've almost a few times made a custom tote for my LN #4 to fit my smaller hands. I will some day when i don't have as many projects that i'd like to get done.

18 minutes ago, Tmize said:

I have a couple Veritas planes now side rabbet,routerplane, and love them amazing fit an finish. I’ve never owned LN but I’m sure I’ll be just as impressed

This might be my BD bias or maybe I just prefer Cherry to what ever LV makes their hand planes from but I personally can't stand the look of LV tools. The wood they use on their handles is just plane ugly....

[Immortan D]

One huge advantage of the LN 4 1/2 is that frogs are compatible with their 5 1/2, 6 and 7 bench planes, while the LN 4 frog is only compatible with the LN 5.

[Chestnut]

18 minutes ago, Immortan D said:

One huge advantage of the LN 4 1/2 is that frogs are compatible with their 5 1/2, 6 and 7 bench planes, while the LN 4 frog is only compatible with the LN 5.

Would you ever switch your frogs though? I don't know that i'd call this a huge advantage. I don't even know how the frog comes out of a LN plane.

[Immortan D]

1 hour ago, Chestnut said:

Would you ever switch your frogs though? I don't know that i'd call this a huge advantage. I don't even know how the frog comes out of a LN plane.

The frog comes out easily.

The whole idea behind interchangeable frogs is that you don't need a plane for each pitch, you can just switch frogs. That's why LN offers frogs for sale as separate items.

So if you bought your 4 1/2 with a 55° frog, and at a later time you get your 5 1/2, 6 or 7 with the standard 45°, you will be able to switch frogs.

 

[Chestnut]

2 hours ago, Immortan D said:

The frog comes out easily.

The whole idea behind interchangeable frogs is that you don't need a plane for each pitch, you can just switch frogs. That's why LN offers frogs for sale as separate items.

So if you bought your 4 1/2 with a 55° frog, and at a later time you get your 5 1/2, 6 or 7 with the standard 45°, you will be able to switch frogs.

 

That's the same premise as switching the blade on the low angle planes but i haven't heard of any one that does that. Is this something that people actually do or is it just a sales thing?

I guess i just don't see the the time it takes to switch the frog to add up to a savings to make the switch worth it. Also you'd have to have the 5 1/2 6 or 7 to make it worth while as well. Not sure if his 5 1/2 6 or 7 are Stanley or LN i thought they were Stanley but i could be wrong.

Also i don't see much utility in the higher angle frog in the fore and joitner planes so the switch would result in one disassembled plane waiting for it's frog back. A lot of this is opinion and preference so i think @Tmize will need to take the 2 conflicting pieces of advice and see how they work with his tool usage.

[Tpt life]

8 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

That's the same premise as switching the blade on the low angle planes but i haven't heard of any one that does that. Is this something that people actually do or is it just a sales thing?

I guess i just don't see the the time it takes to switch the frog to add up to a savings to make the switch worth it.

Also i don't see much utility in the higher angle frog in the fore and joitner planes so the switch would result in one disassembled plane waiting for it's frog back. 

This is a timber and usage issue. With no interlocking grain or tear out prone wood, I don’t want to push a high angle. With a big budget, we dedicate planes. Swapping is budget friendly. I don’t see anyone swap frequently. One swap per six month project? Worth it for most. 

High angle in a long plane is also a usage issue. In a tear out prone case, the long sole spans across corners for leveling the adjoining case sides. Also, jointing is often on narrow boards in casework. This is a workflow issue that justifiably may have no place in your shop. 

[derekcohen]

There are two ways to go for dedicated smoothing planes - many varieties of these two, but two basic choices: either you are going to go high cutting angle, or closed up chipbreaker.

The high cutting angle can be a BD planes in metal, such as the LN with high angle frog or Veritas Custom, or in wood, such as a HNT Gordon. In a BU plane, there are LN and Veritas versions.

Planes using a closed up chipbreaker may include Stanley, LN, and Veritas Custom.

If you wish to go down the route of a high cutting angle, then please do not get a metal BD smoother with a high angle frog. You will soon discover that it is much, much harder to push. Tiring. The better alternative is either a BU plane with a high secondary micro bevel (I advise against blades with high angle primary bevels as they are difficult to camber. Only get 25 degree blades, and then add a cambered 50 degree secondary micro bevel). The absolute best BU smoother is the Veritas BU Smoother.

(I modified my BUS) ..

 

The advantage of a high cutting angle in a BD plane is that one only needs to hone the blade, and away you go. The only high cutting angle BD plane I know that works effortlessly, and with high performance, is the wooden HNT Gordon smoother (60 degrees). It has a low centre of effort, which is what distinguishes it from metal BD planes.

 

Then we get to the BD planes with double irons (chip breakers). The advantage here is that the standard bed angle allows a lower cutting angle, which translates into easier pushing and a cleaner surface. Setting a closed up chipbreaker takes a little practice, but is the ultimate smoother, and better than any of the others above (a test of this is planing the centre junction of a book matched panel). The two I fancy here are the LN #3 or #4, and the Veritas Custom #4, all with common angle frogs (45 degrees). The Veritas has the advantage of PM-V11 steel for the blade, which is probably the best available currently. I even use it in my LN #3.

 

Note: I have both the LN # and #4 1/2 in bronze. I have large hands. The #3 has a handle from the #4. It is used much of the time. The #4 1/2 is hardly used - it is just too heavy and cumbersome. Smoothers need to be nimble.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Immortan D]

1 hour ago, Chestnut said:

I guess i just don't see the the time it takes to switch the frog to add up to a savings to make the switch worth it. Also you'd have to have the 5 1/2 6 or 7 to make it worth while as well. Not sure if his 5 1/2 6 or 7 are Stanley or LN i thought they were Stanley but i could be wrong.

You don't need to buy the extra planes, just the extra frogs ($75 each vs $325 for another 4 1/2...).

Personally I don't own any of the high angle frogs. I have a LN #4 and a #3 I use for smoothing,  both with the 45° frog. I resort to fine tuning (and mineral spirits ) when dealing with difficult woods, which is not so often.

But if I could go back in time, I'd prolly get the 4 1/2 with the 55° frog instead of the #4, since I already own a 5 1/2 with the 45° frog. I wouldn't mind switching frogs, but YMMV.

[woodbutcher]

Im in the market for a new smoothing plane as well. Was debating between a 4 and a 4 1/2 standard angle frog. Is there that much of a difference in size between the 4 and 4 1/2? I wanted the slightly bigger one for the little bit extra mass, but not if its gonna be so much bigger that its uncomfortable. I dont have huge hands.

[Chestnut]

12 minutes ago, Immortan D said:

You don't need to buy the extra planes, just the extra frogs ($75 each vs $325 for another 4 1/2...).

Personally I don't own any of the high angle frogs. I have a LN #4 and a #3 I use for smoothing,  both with the 45° frog. I resort to fine tuning (and mineral oil ) when dealing with difficult woods, which is not so often.

But if I could go back in time, I'd prolly get the 4 1/2 with the 55° frog instead of the #4, since I already own a 5 1/2 with the 45° frog. I wouldn't mind switching frogs, but YMMV.

I think it's been missed that he currently has a regular #4 and is looking to add a dedicated plane and is interested in the high angle. I agree with Derek's comment above that a smoother needs to be nimble. One of these days I'll tune up my #3 and take it for a spin. I have a feeling that it'd turn into my go to smoother. Not sure why i'm dragging my feet there....

I think the switching might have more merit in a shop that wasn't already well equipped but based off his plane list i feel like the dedicated plane route is more suitable to his style. It's not like he only has a LN #5 1/2 and is looking for his first smoother.

57 minutes ago, derekcohen said:

If you wish to go down the route of a high cutting angle, then please do not get a metal BD smoother with a high angle frog. You will soon discover that it is much, much harder to push. Tiring. The better alternative is either a BU plane with a high secondary micro bevel (I advise against blades with high angle primary bevels as they are difficult to camber. Only get 25 degree blades, and then add a cambered 50 degree secondary micro bevel). The absolute best BU smoother is the Veritas BU Smoother.

Having a BD 45 degree #4 and a BD 50 degree #4 i can't say that it is as you say "much much harder to push" if anything it's barley noticeably harder to push. I use my Stanley and LN 50 degree back to back a lot and notice more drag when the wax wears off than any difference between the plane frog angles. I know you have far more experience than i do so i believe you, so am I missing something?

[Tmize]

I appreciate all the advise. Yes I’m looking for a dedicated smoother. I am interested in going to a higher angle smooth as my Stanley #4 does a great job most of the time. But with the mouth closed up as tight as it will go without choking up an chip breaker set at about 1/32 back it’s doing all it can do. So I’m wanting to add another option to my arsenal before I go to my #80. But being that I’ve always used bd plane would I be disappointed trying a bu plane?

 

[Chestnut]

3 minutes ago, Tmize said:

But being that I’ve always used bd plane would I be disappointed trying a bu plane?

Preference some people love em some people hate em. Find a spot to take a few options for a spin. I suggest woodcraft or see if you can find another person  in your area that has some hand tools you don't have. Or that other place you mentioned think it was highland ... but a 2 hour drive is unfortunate.

[Immortan D]

1 hour ago, Tmize said:

But being that I’ve always used bd plane would I be disappointed trying a bu plane?

Aside from block planes, my only experience with BU planes came from using my LN LAJP, which is never my first choice. I find BD planes easier to adjust, even on the fly, and get what I want. But that's me.

[Tpt life]

4 hours ago, Tmize said:

I appreciate all the advise. Yes I’m looking for a dedicated smoother. I am interested in going to a higher angle smooth as my Stanley #4 does a great job most of the time. But with the mouth closed up as tight as it will go without choking up an chip breaker set at about 1/32 back it’s doing all it can do. So I’m wanting to add another option to my arsenal before I go to my #80. But being that I’ve always used bd plane would I be disappointed trying a bu plane?

 

Check your honing. I have enjoyed success with insanely dense interlocked Brazilian hardwood with the chipbreaker set tight. Derek up there^ works Jarrah. Metallurgy or sharp might be the step up you are looking for. Work to push is no exaggeration on high angle. 

[derekcohen]

5 hours ago, Tmize said:

I appreciate all the advise. Yes I’m looking for a dedicated smoother. I am interested in going to a higher angle smooth as my Stanley #4 does a great job most of the time. But with the mouth closed up as tight as it will go without choking up an chip breaker set at about 1/32 back it’s doing all it can do. So I’m wanting to add another option to my arsenal before I go to my #80. But being that I’ve always used bd plane would I be disappointed trying a bu plane?

 

 Stanley #4 can do a superb job of smoothing - as good as any premium plane  ... better in the right hands, which means with the right set up!

Mouth size is important, but not what you think. If using a high cutting angle (55 degrees and above), a tight mouth makes absolutely no difference ... other than getting in the way. It definitely gets in the way of the chipbreaker if you close this down. With these setups, you must open the mouth. 

Try setting the chipbreaker close on the #4 - open the mouth by an extra 1-2mm, and then close the chipbreaker to about 0.4mm behind the edge of the blade. Further back than this and the method does not work when taking fine shavings. 

This will also test how well you have tuned the underside of the leading edge of the chipbreaker. If not done well, you will jam in shavings. 

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tmize]

Well this has raise a question l haven’t thought much about with metallurgy of the blade. So I’ve upgraded all my original Stanley blades with wood river V3 blades an at the time it was a good improvement over stock. So my question is what makes the difference in steel types an what make one better than the other? Is it let’s say pmv-11 the steel they use is it a tighter grain steel so when it is sharpened and honed you get fewer microscopic knicks in the cutting edge? Which in turn reduces wear and also creates a sharper edge due to it is closer plane where the two angles meet at the point?

[Tpt life]

V3 WR does great work for me. So does vintage Stanley. D prefers the PMV-11. Is his blog in his signature? I cannot tell on mobile. 

[Tmize]

2 hours ago, Tpt life said:

Check your honing. I have enjoyed success with insanely dense interlocked Brazilian hardwood with the chipbreaker set tight. Derek up there^ works Jarrah. Metallurgy or sharp might be the step up you are looking for. Work to push is no exaggeration on high angle. 

As far as sharpening I have a good setup coarse,fine,extra fine dmt stones followed green polishing compound on genuine cow leather strop. The back is also polished on the strop to a mirror finish. Now yes I do have a upgraded iron no it is not top of the line in the wood river V3 blade to was a nice upgraded at the time. An by tear out No I’m not getting major amounts due to bad technic. I’d say almost always get awesome results even in tricky grain I’m just looking at a upgrade. I’m sure not a hand plane master by any means but I have worked my way up an have gotten loads better over the years of practice to where I’m very comfortable know now to where I can leave the sander in the drawer an give it a plane finish