Harbor Freight DC with mods vs Grizzly G0548ZP

[SteveKoz]

Hi.  Looking for some thoughts/discussion about my first DC system.  Original plan was to get the HF DC and then add the Rikon impeller, open up the inlet to 6", change the bag to a  Wynn .5 micron filter and install a 6" SDD cyclone and 6" metal ducting.  The cyclone and 6" ducting will cost the same for either system so that's a wash here.   

HF DC delivered $201.99.. Wynn .5 filter $232, Rikon impeller $120? ( They are out of stock till mid April. Won't show shipping costs but part is $99. Adding $20 for shipping)  totaling $553.  

Grizzly G0548ZP - Grizzly 1 micron filter, already has a 6" inlet.  No modification to the DC required..  $635.  

The Grizzly is $82 more.  Actually it will cost me $104 more since I already ordered the HF unit which can be returned minus the $22 I paid for shipping. 

So is the Grizzly worth $104 more vs the Harbor Freight model?  Is the 1 micron Grizzly filter enough to keep the fine dust from forming around the shop?  I've read nothing but good reviews on the Wynn filters AND the Wynn is a .5 micron so I will be loosing a little on the filter side.  The HF with the mods have reports of 1500 CFM where the Grizzly states 1700 CFM.  Is 1700 an actual achievable number?  HF is 115V where Grizzly is 220V.  Not sure what impact that has...    Grizzly has replacement parts available.. not sure what parts would be needed.. Grizzly new motor is $316 plus shipping.. The entire HF unit was $202 delivered so IF the motor goes I can purchase a new unit for less.  Haven't heard of the HF motors burning out as being a problem with them.

Kind of confused.  Any help/thoughts is appreciated.  

[wtnhighlander]

The question is really this: is all the time and effort you'll spend performing the mods to the HF unit worth less than the $104 you save on gear?

Not for me. Probably not for you, either.

[Coop]

I guess another question is, is the Grizz worth the asking price, compared to others?  Having nothing except a Craflsman shop vac to compare it to, Ihave the HF system that I converted to and built a mobile stand for, a two stage system with a Wynn filter and it works great. However, I roll this mother around the shop and plug it into my machines which is definately a pain. I plan, in the next two months, to mount it to a wall and duct it out. At that time, I can honestly give an opinion. 

[Carl10]

Steve,

There is no question the Grizzly is the better choice.  Stated CFM is far overstated in both cases as with all single stage DCs.  The HF claim makes it seem close but it is impossible for the original 10" impeller  to outperform any 1 1/2HP DC with 11" impellers, yet alone come close to the Grizzly.  The Grizzly is also a stretch but with a 12 3/4" impeller will outperform the HF with the 12" Rikon upgrade (Actually only 11 3/4").  Also, the Rikon is only 3 1/4" tall where the Grizzly is about 4" tall.  So the larger diameter provides more static pressure and CFMs and the taller impeller provides more CFMs.  Then there is the housing construction.  You will open the inlet, but the outlet is also important to increase as it only has a 5" hose going to the filter, which is a restriction.  The Grizzly has a large  smooth metal duct going to the filter.  The other housing difference is you are cramming a 12" impeller into a housing designed for a 10" which changes all the dimensions relative to blower design efficiencies.  The Grizzly housing was made for a 12 3/4" impeller.

Forgetting all the work involved the ~$100 difference gives you much better performance without voiding the warranty.

 

Hope that helps, let us know what you do.

Carl

[difalkner]

We have the HF unit with Wynn 0.5 micron filter and it has worked well for us.  I only run one machine at a time and move a 20' clear hose to each machine as needed.  I have overhead ducting going to the CNC and just switch out the hoses at the DC when needed. 

However, the '2'HP motor is right at the edge of what most household 120V 15A circuits will handle and while ours works ok I have read many times of breakers tripping.  Just putting in a 20A breaker isn't smart if the wiring in the wall wasn't designed for that load. 

I would rather have all 240V equipment in the shop and most of ours is, but the budget at the time dictated getting the HF with discount coupon.  I upgraded to the Wynn filter a year later and it is far, far better than the 5 micron bag that comes with the unit.

If I had it to do over I would look at the Grizzly if for no other reason than I could run it on 240V.  But at this point I'll keep using the HF until it dies.

David

[Minnesota Steve]

If it was me, I'd avoid the mods... I think the mod is great idea if you already have it and want to try to make it slightly better  But getting something ready made for your purpose will work a lot better with less frustration.

If you have 240V, I'd go with the Grizzly.   But I think if you want to run 6" ducting even that might not be enough.

Watch Matt Cremona's video about his dust collector upgrade...

 

[SteveKoz]

 Thanks for the input. I have to run an outlet to where I plan to install the DC so a 110v or 220V really isn't that much more work.   I was surprised to see how much material his old collector left in the ducts.  Does make you wonder.  If you reduce the pipe to 5" does that increase the static pressure ?  Basically going from a 6" inlet to a 5" pipe create better/more suction? 

[Chestnut]

22 minutes ago, SteveKoz said:

 Thanks for the input. I have to run an outlet to where I plan to install the DC so a 110v or 220V really isn't that much more work.   I was surprised to see how much material his old collector left in the ducts.  Does make you wonder.  If you reduce the pipe to 5" does that increase the static pressure ?  Basically going from a 6" inlet to a 5" pipe create better/more suction? 

The amount of suction is slightly less  Pipe velocity is higher. The system is less efficient. The real answer is complicated.

I don't know your end goal but my opinion is use the hf as a step from no dc to cyclone. I'd use it no mods and go from there. Save for a cyclone eventually.

[SteveKoz]

41 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

The amount of suction is slightly less  Pipe velocity is higher. The system is less efficient. The real answer is complicated.

I don't know your end goal but my opinion is use the hf as a step from no dc to cyclone. I'd use it no mods and go from there. Save for a cyclone eventually.

I wasn't really impressed with the cyclone in the video.  Seemed like a lot of material got into the filter and filter itself.  The Oneida SDD seems to do a better job?

[Chestnut]

Yeah didn't mean the cyclone on the video just one in general. Oneida makes some good ones as do some other brands. Even getting some stuff in the filter is better than nothing.

 

[Chet]

1 hour ago, Chestnut said:

Yeah didn't mean the cyclone on the video just one in general.

I have looked at the Laguna's at a Rockler because I would like to upgrade to a cyclone, but I have height and space challenges.  I came away thinking that Laguna came up with sort of a cyclone that sort of had a small foot print and was sort of Mobile.  So it ended up being average in most areas.  Its still on my list but I am more likely to go with Oneida who has better performance in a situations where you have to having to keep the size and height down some.

[Just Bob]

I have owned the HF DC for over 10yrs, and over that span I have tried every mod I know of.  As it sits now it is on a SSD cyclone with the Rikon impellor, and ducted outside.  I run 5" duct to my machines and it works.  With hindsight being 20/20, I would have put my money into a 3hp+ system, and let it be a buy once cry once purchase.  I would much rather put my time and money into woodworking than modifying my machines to be slightly better.  DC is important and if you can financially swing it, buy a DC that you can grow into, not the other way around. 

[SteveKoz]

I appreciate all the ideas and conversation.  It's good to bounce ideas off people who understand.    I have a small hobby shop in my basement .. A 12" Compound miter saw and a 10" table saw are my main tools.  Variety of hand tools, router, drill, palm sander, etc..  I have not been using ANY dust collection.  I just sweep up / shop vac up when I'm done.   I currently have dust all over the basement which is how this project got started.  I don't have enough space in my work area so putting the DC about 13' away from the edge of my 13x20 area is where it will fit.  Running 30+ feet of flex hose across the floor and swapping between machines is an option but not very desirable.  That's why I am looking at ducting.  

The cyclone systems seems to be the way a lot of the higher costing machines are going.  It makes sense to separate whatever you can before it reaches the filter. Adding a SDD to my system is something I want to do.    I drew up a few VERY simple design pictures.  Top two would be using the Grizzly G0548ZP.  Second picture I spaced out the SDD further from the blower to reduce the sharp bends. The third is what I had planned for the HF upgrade.  The HF version seems very similar to the new cyclone systems.  Wouldn't I get better performance from option 3.  Grizzly claims about 200 CFM more than the HF but with the extra hose and elbows required to attach the SDD I would assume that 200cfm would be lost.  

[Chestnut]

Option 3 is the best. Minimizing elbows as much as possible will make the system run best. Cyclones are nice because they minimize loading on filters allowing finer filtration to be used without clogging the filter. They take space though.

Other benefits is that the cyclone protects ghee impeller of the collector. This way you don't have up worry about accidentally sucking up that chunk of 2x4.

[Isaac]

I think I don't quite understand how these systems are set up. With option three, how does material get to the bag at the very end? does that bag do anything? 

[Minnesota Steve]

I don't have a Super Dust Deputy(yet), but I've had several of the smaller dust deputies on my vacuum.   That's what I started out with.

My main advice on the cyclone is that the container the dust flows into has to be sealed up perfectly.   In watching Cremona's video on his new dust collector I think that's a large part of the problem he's having.  He had a followup showing his container and it seemed leaky.  The other is that the cyclone on the Laguna may not be well designed.   It seems short and fat.

I think this is what you're thinking of doing... and it's a useful tutorial:

http://www.grayhousestudio.com/harbor-freight-dust-collector-mod/

 

Oh, and one other thing with the cyclone... you have to not fill up the container, you want to empty it before it get's full... otherwise everything ends up going through and clogging up your filter and it's a real mess.

[Isaac]

6 minutes ago, Minnesota Steve said:

Oh, and one other thing with the cyclone... you have to not fill up the container, you want to empty it before it get's full... otherwise everything ends up going through and clogging up your filter and it's a real mess.

Yes, I've got a poor mans separator built with a barrel and opposite facing elbows attached to the lid. It actually performs alright, but once it reaches about 2/3 full, you risk material bypassing the barrel altogether. 

[SteveKoz]

43 minutes ago, Minnesota Steve said:

I don't have a Super Dust Deputy(yet), but I've had several of the smaller dust deputies on my vacuum.   That's what I started out with.

My main advice on the cyclone is that the container the dust flows into has to be sealed up perfectly.   In watching Cremona's video on his new dust collector I think that's a large part of the problem he's having.  He had a followup showing his container and it seemed leaky.  The other is that the cyclone on the Laguna may not be well designed.   It seems short and fat.

I think this is what you're thinking of doing... and it's a useful tutorial:

http://www.grayhousestudio.com/harbor-freight-dust-collector-mod/

 

Oh, and one other thing with the cyclone... you have to not fill up the container, you want to empty it before it get's full... otherwise everything ends up going through and clogging up your filter and it's a real mess.

I actually got my idea from Gray House Studio's video.    My confusion is whether it made sense to buy the HF and make the mods or just buy the Grizzly for about $104 more.  Grizzly seemingly being the better system with a larger impeller and impeller housing from the start and with a bit more CFM.  After thinking about how I would connect the Grizzly to a SDD I'm thinking I might loose more than gain.    

[SteveKoz]

1 hour ago, Isaac said:

I think I don't quite understand how these systems are set up. With option three, how does material get to the bag at the very end? does that bag do anything? 

This is the way many of the newer  cyclone systems are being designed.  You place a 30gal or 55gal barrel under the SDD.  All the larger dust and chips fall into the barrel.  Air and some finer dust gets sucked up the cyclone and into the filter.  What you see in the bottom of the bag under the filter is just the fine dust that makes it past the SDD.   One thing in the gray house studio video I didn't like was that little bag he has under his filter.  He says he doesn't get much dust at all through his system. Everything gets caught in the SDD.  After watching the video above with Matt and his new cyclone system either Matt's new system does a really poor job of filtering out the dust OR Gray House Studio has some modifications required for his setup.   I planned on adding a 2 gal bucket with a Gamma spin on lid. 

[SteveKoz]

21 hours ago, Chestnut said:

The amount of suction is slightly less  Pipe velocity is higher. The system is less efficient. The real answer is complicated.

I don't know your end goal but my opinion is use the hf as a step from no dc to cyclone. I'd use it no mods and go from there. Save for a cyclone eventually.

This stuff is addicting and confusing to me.  I have no actual knowledge and ZERO experience with DC system.  Each decision has pro's and con's.  Cost being one of the con's and frustration especially if the HF unit can't handle 6" ducting over the length of piping I need.  I started looking at the Jet JCDC 2hp and 3hp models.  Once I factor in the cost of the SDD and barrel the cost difference would be $575 more for the 2hp and $665 more for the 3hp.. And with the 3hp having an 8" inlet do I then need to step up into 8" ducting?  This is where I felt the addicting part kicking in..    I watched a couple videos and the 2hp unit seemed to pass a lot of dust into the bag under the filter AND they needed to use the handle to paddle the filter a lot more than I expected just like Matt's video.   I'm not sure if it's the design of these new cyclone system or if Gray House Studio's design and claims are that far off.   

[Carl10]

Steve,

Not sure why you can't do option 3 with the Grizzly the exact same way as the HF or any other DC blower. As stated the less hoses/connections the better. As previously stated the HF is not even close to the performance of the Grizzly.  Looking at the attached chart you will see the lower performing version of the Grizzly 2HP (G1029) is second from the top. The G0548 will outperform the 1029.  The HF is second from the bottom.  Even with the mod it not perform as well as the Grizzly.  The duct size is important in a system design.  Some cyclones have 7 & 8" inlets but an 8" duct may not be the best for your shop. For smaller designs using the Grizzly 2HP and 5" ducts are the best combinations.  If you use 4" ducts you add a lot of resistance and degrade the performance. On the other hand if you go too big you lose velocity.  So 6" ducting on smaller blowers risks losing too much velocity and having chips/dust collect in the horizontal runs.  The proper way is to calculate all the resistance for each run of pipe and hose and determine if the blower you have can produce enough CFMs at each machine. This site can give you some insight https://airhand.com/designing/.

Also the chart below will give you some idea of the velocity CFM requirements.

 

Hope this helps let us know what you do.

Carl

 

[wtnhighlander]

7 hours ago, Chestnut said:

. This way you don't have up worry about accidentally sucking up that chunk of 2x4.

Or your teeth.

I miss Don....

[wtnhighlander]

A cyclone is certainly more effective with fines, but just one of those garbage can separator lids from Rockler catches a lot of stuff ahead of the impeller.

[Chestnut]

2 minutes ago, wtnhighlander said:

Or your teeth.

I miss Don....

I was waiting for that .

 

[SteveKoz]

Thanks Carl,  Is that your setup by Penultimate?  I haven't seen one on a cart like that.  Looks good.  

 I was looking at the G1029 system today.  It's $153 more than a HF with impeller upgrade. It's a pretty good option.  

You got me looking into these charts and numbers and it looks like if you are running anything more than 2 tools in your line you need an 8" main duct off the DC unit.  I haven't played with static pressure yet.  Basically Small CFM users like a table saw (which I thought would be higher) use 350 CFM.. Router is another 350 CFM.  They didn't list a rating for a chop saw but lets play with another 350 CFM..  That's a total of 1050 CFM's.  According to the chart 1 I would need an 8" main.  Since my workshop starts about 13' away from where I thought to leave the DC unit most of my run would have to be 8" .  I was also looking at the 2hp cyclone systems to see if that made more sense over what I was thinking about building.   Based on the comparison chart the 2hp would not be enough.. The 3hp would be the smallest unit that would work... and that's for 3 low consumption CFM tools?   Can this be correct?