Dust, dust, dust, perennial questions?

[Shane Jimerfield]

I've got a Super Dust Deputy Deluxe hooked up to a Rikon 1hp and venting outside. I use 4" flex hose with a Dust Right Quick Change adapter that I move to my machines.

When I use the drum sander I'm getting dust out the end, and not feeling like I want to do that to my neighbors or myself. (I don't use the DS tons, but when I do I feel badly) I got the SDD hoping it would capture the fines, but alas not so much.

I'm wondering, is it matter of not pulling enough air through the system that the SDD is not able to better capture the fines? Or am I destined to put a filter on the system? If I ramped up to a 2hp Grizzly and vented it outside through a 4" would the SDD perform better, reducing particulates to a tolerable level?

Please don't hate me for posting these questions. LOL...

[Chestnut]

I don't know why your worried about it. 1 windy day will put a heck of a lot more dust in the air than a drum sander. I doubt your neighbors even notice. Adding a filter is going to bring you nothing but headaches. My best advice is to get over it. It's some sawdust it's not going to hurt anything. Hit the area with a leaf blower after, once the rain hit's it it'll go into the environment as fertilizer.

I'm not sure where the capacity of your machine is but a 1hp might struggle to move enough air to separate the fines. If you can get some more air in the system you might have a better removal efficiency. When i run my drum sander with my 3HP cyclone i always run with 2 ports open. But that's pulling nearly 12 amps @  240 volts.

I guess i don't know how close your port is to your neighbors and what the  environment is like at the outside vent.

[Shane Jimerfield]

LOL...yeah, I'm trying to be a good neighbor. And perhaps I'm projecting my uptightness. I'm in a typical tightly packed subdivision. I don't have to deal with an uptight HOA or anything. I would like to get it to invisible though.

Chestnut, do you exhaust outside? If so, do you see dust when using the DS?

[Chet]

1 hour ago, Shane Jimerfield said:

I'm in a typical tightly packed subdivision.

Me too,  I use a canister filter on my DC unit.

[Chestnut]

2 hours ago, Shane Jimerfield said:

LOL...yeah, I'm trying to be a good neighbor. And perhaps I'm projecting my uptightness. I'm in a typical tightly packed subdivision. I don't have to deal with an uptight HOA or anything. I would like to get it to invisible though.

Chestnut, do you exhaust outside? If so, do you see dust when using the DS?

I don't vent outside. My cyclone also separates most of the dust. Even still i have to take my filter outside and hit it with the leaf blower once a year if not twice depending on the amount of drum sander use. A smaller filter and a less efficient cyclone is going to plug a filter fairly quickly. You might be out there monthly cleaning it out which is going to be a lot more of a nusience than exhausting.

I deal with residents often for work and i hate to say it but being proactive is a practice in futility. It's easier to do the minimum, which is a viable end product that meets all industry standards, and wait until a squeaky wheel comes and address them individually. If they get a say in the solution they are  more happy with it regardless of what the outcome is. Most often the solution they decide on is less than extents you are willing to do to solve the problem. If you do the maximum every time even though they aren't a part of the solution they are going to complain. Having input means more to people generally than the outcome for the situation.

Like i said before most people are oblivious and they probably don't even notice. Have the conversation first stress after you know the outcome. It's hard to solve something when you don't know the scope of the problem or anything about the issues at hand. The only reason i say this is as covered at the top filters and drum sanders don't get along very well unless you have a very efficient cyclone and if you are seeing dust in the are you probably don't have the most efficient setup.

 

[Chet]

2 hours ago, Chestnut said:

A smaller filter and a less efficient cyclone is going to plug a filter fairly quickly.

I have a 1 3/4 hp DC (no cyclone) with a canister filter that has paddles on a crank,  I try to remember to turn the paddles 3 or 4 times per shop session and I still have to blow the filter out about every six months.  So I would guess Chestnut is correct, you would probably have to blow yours out monthly at a minimum.   The drum sander is the biggest cause to a dirty filter in my shop.

[Just Bob]

I vent outside with my harbor freight DC with a SSD and get little or no visible dust outside, regardless of the tool I am using.  When I set mine up I remember reading something about the minimum length of duct from the exhaust of the dust deputy to the intake of the impeller.  The correct length allows the fines to be captured by the dust deputy and bin.  The information was either on Bill Pentz or Oneida's site.  I don't remember the exact length but set mine up with a 2ft length of duct and it works very well.  You might try adjusting your system is set up.

[Shane Jimerfield]

22 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

I vent outside with my harbor freight DC with a SSD and get little or no visible dust outside, regardless of the tool I am using.  When I set mine up I remember reading something about the minimum length of duct from the exhaust of the dust deputy to the intake of the impeller.  The correct length allows the fines to be captured by the dust deputy and bin.  The information was either on Bill Pentz or Oneida's site.  I don't remember the exact length but set mine up with a 2ft length of duct and it works very well.  You might try adjusting your system is set up.

How many horses are turning your impeller?

[Just Bob]

1 hour ago, Shane Jimerfield said:

How many horses are turning your impeller?

Harbor Freight lists it as 2hp but it is probably closer to 1 1/2.  I have modified it with a larger impeller which really improved its efficiency.  Here is the thread on the mods.  

 

 

[Coop]

Bob, so the thread shows to be back almost 3 years ago. Are you still using the same system? 

[Coop]

For those that dump outside, do you use just a simple clothes dryer type cap for the cover? 

[Just Bob]

es

1 hour ago, K Cooper said:

Bob, so the thread shows to be back almost 3 years ago. Are you still using the same system? 

Yep its still alive.

1 hour ago, K Cooper said:

For those that dump outside, do you use just a simple clothes dryer type cap for the cover? 

I use a screen with a about 1/4 inch squares to cover the hole.  It is about 7ft off the ground and covered by the shop eve, so my only concern was critters.

[Chestnut]

21 hours ago, Shane Jimerfield said:

If I ramped up to a 2hp Grizzly and vented it outside through a 4" would the SDD perform better, reducing particulates to a tolerable level?

I think i missed this? I think the 1hp motor is a bit weak. If you stepped up to a 2hp blower you'd have better luck. Dust separates from getting flug to the sides of the cyclone so if you put more air in the velocity is higher and the dust separates better. Again if it was missed you might need to install a wye near the inlet to the collector and have a blast gate half cracked to add some additional air. Reducing any inefficiencies in the system will help as well.

Also as a note make sure that your SSD and the dust canister are 100% air tight. Any air the leaks into the canister is going to draw dust strait up the cyclone. This is the most important part of the DC system.

I have a 3hp system and while i don't vent outside my filter stays a lot cleaner when i run with 2 blast gates open.

 

[Shane Jimerfield]

Things are tight at the SDD setup.

The biggest problems are the flex hose, the two elbows and the 1hp motor. There's not much I can do about the flex and elbows, so I might try a bigger motor. Interesting point about opening it up to grab more air. If I upgrade the power that might help, but with the 1 hp I'm not sure it would help. When I disconnect the SDD the vent does not feel as thought it's pushing more air (my hand and memory are the best gauges I have, which are purely anecdotal).

[gee-dub]

Kudos on trying to be a good neighbor.  You are on the right track IMHO on the flex.  The Rockler Dust Right hose is an amazing airflow killer.  There is flex hose with a smoother interior but, of course it doesn't shrink up like the super-flexy stuff.  We all have to find a balance between the dust collection ideal and what will actually work for us.  The important thing is that you are using dust collection and pursuing a better version that fits your situation.

[drzaius]

9 hours ago, Shane Jimerfield said:

Things are tight at the SDD setup.

The biggest problems are the flex hose, the two elbows and the 1hp motor. There's not much I can do about the flex and elbows, so I might try a bigger motor. Interesting point about opening it up to grab more air. If I upgrade the power that might help, but with the 1 hp I'm not sure it would help. When I disconnect the SDD the vent does not feel as thought it's pushing more air (my hand and memory are the best gauges I have, which are purely anecdotal).

Putting a bigger motor on the existing setup will do nothing at all to improve airflow. To gain benefit, you need to do one, or preferably all of the following; reduce restriction, increase impeller size, and increase motor size

[Chestnut]

There are a lot of ideas floating around. I think a few pictures would probably help. We can make a lot of guesses but that doesn't tell us the story.

[Shane Jimerfield]

10 hours ago, drzaius said:

Putting a bigger motor on the existing setup will do nothing at all to improve airflow. To gain benefit, you need to do one, or preferably all of the following; reduce restriction, increase impeller size, and increase motor size

I wouldn't do that. When I say "bigger motor," I mean a bigger impeller too. I'm thinking of upgrading from the Rikon 1HP Snail Dust (9" impeller) that sits above my SDD and blows out a duct to the great outdoors (aka suburbia) to a Grizzley 2HP G1029Z2 (12-3/4" impeller). This might provide the velocity and volume needed to better capture fines in the SDD. Like I mentioned I can't really do anything about the flex and Quick Change adapter, so that might be my best option. I may have to add a Y with a gate to let more volume in for certain machines (I've only got four - I'm mostly a hand tool guy).

Thanks for all your input folks. Mensch, all-ya-all.

[Coop]

13 hours ago, drzaius said:

Putting a bigger motor on the existing setup will do nothing at all to improve airflow. To gain benefit, you need to do one, or preferably all of the following; reduce restriction, increase impeller size, and increase motor size

Frank, am I miss reading or did you contradict yourself? Bigger motor vs increase motor size? 

[Shane Jimerfield]

29 minutes ago, K Cooper said:

Frank, am I miss reading or did you contradict yourself? Bigger motor vs increase motor size? 

I think his point is that a bigger motor alone is not going to help.

[Coop]

Probably right. 

[Mark J]

If you change to a larger dust collector will you then also need to resize the cyclone?

[drzaius]

10 hours ago, K Cooper said:

Frank, am I miss reading or did you contradict yourself? Bigger motor vs increase motor size? 

Ken, I meant to say that a bigger motor also needs a bigger impeller.

[Shane Jimerfield]

2 hours ago, Mark J said:

If you change to a larger dust collector will you then also need to resize the cyclone?

The SDD is marketed for 1 - 3HP systems. The reason I'd upgrade the suction is to provide better flow (quantity and speed of air) through the SDD to get better removal of fines. I don't want to chase my tail here. Do others think a the 2HP Grizzley dust collector is over sized for the SDD? I'll have just one 8' flex hose coming off it.

[Chestnut]

4 minutes ago, Shane Jimerfield said:

The SDD is marketed for 1 - 3HP systems. The reason I'd upgrade the suction is to provide better flow (quantity and speed of air) through the SDD to get better removal of fines. I don't want to chase my tail here. Do others think a the 2HP Grizzley dust collector is over sized for the SDD? I'll have just one 8' flex hose coming off it.

No. You want to be on the higher end of that sizing anyway. It's going to have more restriction on air but will separate the fines out better.

Also the cyclone is sized to the motor HP out of convince.  A cyclone should be sized based off the amount of air that moves thorough it. On my 3 HP system when i shut down all the blast gates and just have my table saw port open the cyclone isn't receiving enough air to effectively separate fines. The power of the motor running the impeller doesn't matter. What the power of the motor allows you to do is to reduce restrictions (hard pipe, larger pipe, more ports open, venting outside, ect) and flow more air. A smaller power motor will become overloaded and will eventually burn out.

In our dust collection systems the induction motors only pull as much power as they need so when you have a ton of restrictions and it's only flowing 350 CFM it's only using 1/2 HP. If the motor is 5 hp it's still only using 1/2 HP because it's only moving 350 cfm. Now if you open things up and move 1050 CFM you'll need 1.5 HP. So the motor will pull current equal to 1.5 HP. {numbers for example purposes only they are not realistic numbers}

350 CFM equates to 5 fps air velocity inside the cyclone if you increase the amount of air to 1050 CFM that velocity will be 15 fps. Because the cyclone is spinning the air in a circle the dust gets flung against the wall of the cyclone and because of the cone shape gravity pulls it down the edge of the cone into the dust bin. The lighter the particle the faster the velocity you need.

What this means. Well there isn't much point to upgrade to a 2 HP blower if you don't use the 2hp of it. How do you know how much you use? Get an amp meter and measure how much draw your current system has. As you modify and upgrade that draw will increase or decrease. It can also tell you if the stuff you are changing is having an impact. It also doesn't seem you are willing to change your setup so I'm not sure how much improvement you will see. If you want to make the situation better you will have to hard pipe and install blast gates and wyes ect. The above and below are why I said if it's a problem with your neighbor it's easier to just talk to your neighbor. I don't know this stuff that well. I've only had a couple classes in fluid dynamics and most of that revolved around incompressible fluids (water).

Could get into the weeds on how ideally you'd want a blower that is designed to pull a bit higher vacuum and doesn't flow as much air to be able to force the air through the system better. And how each blower impeller is going to have it's own pressure map that looks something like what is below and that they are all different and won't necessarily flow the same amount of air with different restrictions. But until you can read the image below i wouldn't worry to much about it. The other thing is good luck finding these for woodworking dust collectors......