Overcomplicating a simple dust collection plan

[bleedinblue]

With a new baby, I'm more concerned than ever about air quality.  I'm now considering a dust collector.  I imagine running piping only to the jointer, planer and table saw (the TS is another discussion, I need to build a shroud or upgrade the saw)  Most all my other tools can be handled by my shop vac.

I'm just going to go with the HF 2hp unit.  That along with a Thein separator and a Wyn filter should handle my needs just fine.

The main part of the room (not counting where the chop saw and lumber rack is) is about 18' long and 15' wide.  I imagine moving the planer and jointer onto the same side of the room and just having a single, 10-15' main run with just three or four drops.  That sounds simple enough, except this is directly underneath the kitchen so there are drain pipes everywhere, electrical conduit every 4 feet or so, HVAC, water pipes, and a large radon pipe, all in the way.

Does anyone have any tips for the cleanest, easiest installation possible?  All of the obstructions are making me scratch my head.

 

 

 

 

[wdwerker]

Just space the pipe out from the wall enough to clear the obstructions. Make a batch of blocks and attach them to the wall, mount the pipe hangers to them.

[Gixxerjoe04]

I have a dust collector, but having a lathe makes it useless haha

[Brendon_t]

I get that you're wanting to get the dc in for the health of your family but this seems like the perfect time to step back, take a breath and assess the situation. If you have the knowledge to design and optimize a piping setup, then let er rip. If not,  it may be time to call in the pros and get a design service. 

If you're still wishy washy about tool locations, decide, then move forward. 

[bleedinblue]

3 hours ago, wdwerker said:

Just space the pipe out from the wall enough to clear the obstructions. Make a batch of blocks and attach them to the wall, mount the pipe hangers to them.

Keep it simple stupid is the answer to so many of life's questions. 

38 minutes ago, Brendon_t said:

I get that you're wanting to get the dc in for the health of your family but this seems like the perfect time to step back, take a breath and assess the situation. If you have the knowledge to design and optimize a piping setup, then let er rip. If not,  it may be time to call in the pros and get a design service. 

If you're still wishy washy about tool locations, decide, then move forward. 

A design service would no doubt be way overkill for my needs.  I'm thinking the most basic of basic setups here, probably three drops to tools and maybe a floor sweep.  By keeping all the piping on one side of the room and following the basic dust collection rules, I should be able to maintain the modest power the HF unit provides.  I think (I'm sure) I'd get myself into trouble if I wanted to branch it off into both sides of the room and have more drops, but I really don't think that'll be necessary.

No extreme rush though, with a 3 month old and a working wife, it's not like I get much shop time these days anyway.  This week I should be able to get downstairs and see about grouping the chip makers together.

[wdwerker]

Just measure to find the obstruction that sticks out the farthest. Leave enough space under the ductwork to prevent sound transmission up into the house.

[Ronn W]

I think that you are on the right track - simple a straight forward. Your shop is a similar size to mine.  Here is my layout  using a 1 3/4" Laguna DC located in one corner of the shop.  The

2 simple straight runs with drops to machines along 2 walls.  One run is mounted below table saw height and the other is just above planar height to avoid wasting suction on vertical runs.  I use blast gates so that I am only drawing from one machine at a time.  I have good suction.  The lead under the edge of the saw to get to the router table is a little more complex since it reduces from 4 to 2 1/2" to the router cabinet. 

I have attached a pdf file of my shop layout but don't know if it will work in the forum.  If it does not, feel free to send me a private message with your email address (if you are comfortable with that) and I will send you the file.

 

ENLARGED SHOP.pdf

Hot Dog it worked!!1

[Eric.]

This is probably not what you're gonna wanna hear, but since you're in the basement and clearly concerned about dust migrating to the rest of the house (as you should be)...I'd seriously consider doing it right and buying a legitimate unit like a ClearVue or a big Oneida.  We're talking 5hp and 6" main.  And adding an air cleaner or two.

The system you're describing is essentially the one I use (minus the filter), and it works fairly well for picking up the bulk of the mess, but is wholly inadequate for pulling the fines out of the air...the stuff that kills you.  I have to assume your system would perform fairly similar to mine (and actually mine would probably be better than yours because I'm filter-free and vent straight outside).

Basement shops are great in the dead of winter and dog days of summer.  Otherwise...this is one more reason why they're a PITA.  I don't care so much in my garage because I'm only gonna kill myself...my family is safe and sound, clean, inside the house.

[collinb]

With (or without) a baby around I would also chime in unison with Eric that you consider air filtration/air cleaner as a companion to dust collection. Dust collection gets the big stuff & can be accomplished in a simple fashion but that leaves a lot of the smaller particulates in the air.

[Tom Cancelleri]

Another thing to consider would be blocking your vents in your basement with some sort of plastic sheeting and some silicone to prevent any of the dust from getting in your HVAC system. I also recommend making sure all your ducting is sealed with foil tape or mastic.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Tom Cancelleri said:

Another thing to consider would be blocking your vents in your basement with some sort of plastic sheeting and some silicone to prevent any of the dust from getting in your HVAC system. I also recommend making sure all your ducting is sealed with foil tape or mastic.

Agreed.  FWIW I had a basement shop when I started and used no dust collection whatsoever.  I had no cold air returns in the shop and I never noticed any dust migrating to our living space.  When we moved out I found mounds of fine dust in the corners of the shop.  However, our furniture and wood floors in the living space never appeared unusually dusty.  I know you can't see the airborne fines but I would assume you would notice them settling on the furniture.  

[bleedinblue]

A Clear-Vue or Oneida would be awesome, but seems to me like that would be like super charging a Prius.  Still yet, this has me thinking that it would be a good idea to run 6" pipes to accommodate it if I had the need to upgrade to such a huge system in the future.  

I'd LOVE to vent outside, but that would mean cutting a 6" or larger hole in the concrete wall of my (walkout) basement.  I don't see this as a possibility.  

I have a home built air cleaner, but it is underpowered and under-filtered.  A step up to a larger commercially made unit with good filtration will likely happen, soon.  Pug's new filter looks real nice and is just $400 on Amazon...

I have sealed off the large air leaks that were between the shop and the furnace.  There are no returns in the shop and only one register, I can easily seal that up and not sacrifice much.

As is, the house only seems to get dusty if I forget to take off my shop shoes.  There is no visible fine dust that accumulates on anything, so I don't think I have any major paths of shop to house air.  That is without being very careful about attaching tools to the shop vac, etc.

 

 

[krtwood]

You'll have problems with the planer clogging the main if you run a 6" main for a smaller DC.  I ran it like that as a temporary setup for a couple years to ease the pain of going to a cyclone.  It's doable but only as a stop gap approach.  There just won't be enough velocity in the main to keep things from getting clogged.

[Ronn W]

I agree with ChancellerI and Collin B. 

[bleedinblue]

49 minutes ago, krtwood said:

You'll have problems with the planer clogging the main if you run a 6" main for a smaller DC.  I ran it like that as a temporary setup for a couple years to ease the pain of going to a cyclone.  It's doable but only as a stop gap approach.  There just won't be enough velocity in the main to keep things from getting clogged.

Well crap.  

Eric won't like to hear this, but Grizzly has some 3 HP options that are reasonably priced.  I might be able to swing something like that.

 

[Eric.]

3 hours ago, bleedinblue said:

Well crap.  

Eric won't like to hear this, but Grizzly has some 3 HP options that are reasonably priced.  I might be able to swing something like that.

 

My DC is a Grizzly and it runs fine, but keep in mind that the specs on those units vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, so just because Grizzly says unit X sucks such and such CFM doesn't necessarily mean it does.  Marketing trickery at its best.  ClearVue and Oneida tend to publish more realistic numbers for their units, from what I've been told.

Any upgrade over a 2hp unit is...an upgrade.  Do what you can afford to do.  I don't take it very seriously because I'm in a garage, but if I were in my basement - especially with a new baby in the house - it would be way high on the priority list.

Take my word for it...the "2hp unit with 4" sewer and drain" set-up will not pull the fines out of the air, which is the whole point.  Read Bill Pentz's site if you are interested in TRUE DC...if you just wanna pick up the mess and disregard the health risks, you're on the right track.

I also agree with krt about the 6" pipe being too big for a 2hp DC.  Unless the run is VERY short.  The inlet on mine is 5", so I wouldn't consider going any bigger than that anywhere in the system.

[bleedinblue]

Bill Pentz makes me think I should take up knitting.

...continuing the research...

 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, bleedinblue said:

Bill Pentz makes me think I should take up knitting.

...continuing the research...

 

If I ranked all aspects of my life based on reward/risk, woodworking (fine dust and all) looks to be relatively high reward, low risk.

[bleedinblue]

So tomorrow I'm going to move some tools around and cluster the major machines together.  Then I should be able to do some rough calculations for CFM loss, which might help me out a bit.

I see the CV1800 is on sale, but $1600 + piping will put me over $2K.  I'm wondering if the Grizzly 3hp unit ($500, add $300 for Wynn filters) would be adequate through 6 inch pipe.

Side note, 6 inch pipe and fittings are WAY more expensive than I expected.  Ouch.

[Tom Cancelleri]

the CV1800 is $1376 if you can duct outside. 

[bleedinblue]

I can't...at least I don't know how I could.  It's a basement with concrete walls.

[Tpt life]

2 minutes ago, bleedinblue said:

I can't...at least I don't know how I could.  It's a basement with concrete walls.

Pipe through the basement ceiling and drill through the rim joist. 

[Chris H]

On 4/20/2016 at 8:41 PM, C Shaffer said:

Pipe through the basement ceiling and drill through the rim joist. 

You typically don't want to poke holes that close to the ground.  It's not an absolute no no, but you will want to go overkill on a rodent and insect prevention in and around the area.  Also if you are in an area prone to frozen precipitation, this is a definite no no.  Snow can block the exhaust port and backup the system.  Here in WI, all external venting has to be something like 24"-30" above grade.  They are concerned about CO backup with heat/dryer vents primarily, which is obviously more serious, but you will have issues with an inspection selling the property if you poke a hole low to the ground.  

[Tpt life]

18 minutes ago, Chris H said:

You typically don't want to poke holes that close to the ground.  It's not an absolute no no, but you will want to go overkill on a rodent and insect prevention in and around the area.  Also if you are in an area prone to frozen precipitation, this is a definite no no.  Snow can block the exhaust port and backup the system.  Here in WI, all external venting has to be something like 24"-30" above grade.  They are concerned about CO backup with heat/dryer vents primarily, which is obviously more serious, but you will have issues with an inspection selling the property if you poke a hole low to the ground.  

If your rim is that close to grade you don't meet code here making your whole post an if situation but certainly worth noting. With a clean out you can certainly run higher even out side. Furnaces do this often. You lose some length of run as static air pressure increases at each turn. 

[Chris H]

1 hour ago, C Shaffer said:

If your rim is that close to grade you don't meet code here making your whole post an if situation but certainly worth noting. With a clean out you can certainly run higher even out side. Furnaces do this often. You lose some length of run as static air pressure increases at each turn. 

Doesn't the rim joist sit on the foundation?  I might be confusing my building terms, but I thought the rim joist is what sat on the foundation.  Either way, keep the hole well off the ground, however you have to.