Shop build in Poland - looking for some help re. structure design.

[raffie]

Hi everyone.

After a year of trying to do my work in a small, cluttered, single garage I finally decided it`s time to build a dedicated shop to enjoy the hobby more. I`m going with a stick frame building, which is VERY unusall in my neck of woods (I live in Europe, in Poland). Becouse of this I have to do stuff based on my gut feeling and the data I can gather from across the pond (this is You guys). After a stint of "paralysis through analysis" I came to some solid-ish conclusions and would really appricate some input from people that live with stick-frame structures everyday. I will try to provide all the numbers in imperial (I`m in metric country). Quite often these will be very close approximations but I think this will be ok.

Anyhow, the shop will be close to 16 x 24 (7,25m x 4,8 m). I know it`s small-ish but any bigger and I have to go through long and costly process of getting permmisions, signed off calculations etc. (and for a stick-frame, that could prove extra difficult). The foundations are going to be pier and beam (this way I still get around frost heave issues without spending a lots on huge concrete slab). Piers will go 4 feet into the ground and sit proud of the grade by about 5-8 inches. Below is the layout for piers I did. Please disregard the metric leaders. On the short side pier spacing is 7`3`` OC, on the long side side it`s 5`7`` OC. The beams will be doubled-up 2x8. My question: am I over-engineering this (I tend to do this)? I know I should do proper PSF calculations etc, but it`s hard to get the figures for the timber, soil capacity, etc., that I have available here. The heaviest piece of equipment will be an old 80`s table saw. I estimate that with outfeed and router tables it will weigh close to 800 lb and will occupy the middle of the shop.

Next up is the subfloor frame. The joists are 2x6, spaced 16`` OC, with doubled up rim-joists. Sheeting will be 3/4 OSB or plywood. Besides the possible over-engineering bit I can`t see anything wrong with this idea but would appricate any input as i`m going of the "internet knowledge" here without a chance to verify this with anyone but You ;).

I have not drawn anything after this but the walls are going to be 2x4 construction, 16`` OC, 1/2 `` OSB sheeting.

Roof - I`m still deciding but will probably end up with a normal gable, 10:12 or 12:12 pitch (this is more to tie in with existing buildings and use the space, than for snow) 2x6 rafters, 2x8 ridge board, 1/2 OSB and asphalt shingles. I was considering DIY trusses but not really sure on loosing all this space up there.

My dream shop is something alond the lines of Dale Heisinger shop from Wood Magazine but I`m not sure if I could pull off the clerstory roof on my own (and not sure about using the space either).

This is going a bit of an experiment for me. Around where I live buidling tend to be all the way brick-and-mortar. There are also some bastardized pole constructions but I`m not sold on these either. I`m going to be working mostly on my own, with some help around to lift walls etc.

I`m going to continue this thread with more of design phase drawings and than, hopefully, with the construction phase journal. Hope I didn`t rable too much :). Any input is very welcome.

Thanks a lot!

[Woodenskye]

If you are set on 2x6 for the floor joists, I would go 12" oc.  If it was me, I would prefer 2x10 at a minimum, especially for a shop that may have heavy machinery on it, whether stationary or mobile.

[raffie]

I`m not "set" on anything. What I presented is just an idea that will be changed as I gather more information. Thanks for this!

[martym]

In my opinion you will need more ground clearance. At least 18 inches. You will at some point in the buildings lifespan need to get under there to work. Update electrical, dust collection, or just pest control.

[Tom King]

I agree with everything that has been replied so far.  There is nothing over-engineered about it.   I suggest to forget 2x6's for joists.  I would use 2x10s if it was mine, and at least 2x10s for the girders.  The rest of the framing design sounds fine to me.

The only other question would be the roof design load there.  For 40 lbs. you're fine.

Do some local research on how much weight the ground will bear.  While you have plenty of piers, I'd be concerned with the footing size under them.

We have a very good friend who is a Granddaughter to the leader there before the Germans came.  She goes every year to visit her family, and brings me pictures of the old shingle buildings there-Very Impressive.

[wtnhighlander]

I'll toss is another vote for a beefier floor structure. I know from personal experience that 2x8 joists on 16" centers will sag under much less weight than you described, let alone 2x6.

The deck behind my house uses concrete piers and 4x4 posts to support doubled 2x12 "beams" on 4 foot centers, with diagonal cross bracing. On top of that are 2x8 joists on 16" centers, and 5/4 decking. Still rock solid after 20 years.

Of course, its just a floor.

[raffie]

Beefier floor it will be than. Doubled up 2x10 beams and 2x10 joists.

8 hours ago, martym said:

In my opinion you will need more ground clearance. At least 18 inches. You will at some point in the buildings lifespan need to get under there to work. Update electrical, dust collection, or just pest control.

That is a very good point. After looking at the tape measure it seems I`m not as slim as I thought

7 hours ago, Tom King said:

The only other question would be the roof design load there.  For 40 lbs. you're fine.

Do some local research on how much weight the ground will bear.  While you have plenty of piers, I'd be concerned with the footing size under them.

We have a very good friend who is a Granddaughter to the leader there before the Germans came.  She goes every year to visit her family, and brings me pictures of the old shingle buildings there-Very Impressive.

I will try to see if I can get some data on the bearing capacity. It`s mostly clay, but will get some more figures for this. As to the roof design - I haven`t got that far yet. W don`t get a lot of snow around here (not any more) but wind-load can be quite substantial couple of weeks a year with constant wind speed around 60-80 feet per second and sudden gusts going above 100 fps.

Tom - old German buildings are amazing. Both shingle buildings and post construction. Unfortunately, where I live, the turbulent history means that pretty much anything was build within last 60 years or so, with occasional 100 years old house. But not far from me is Krakow, which dates back centuries.

Thanks a lot for ideas!!

[-MattK-]

Will you insulate the floor?  Maybe 2x6 walls for more insulation? That's what I did in my build. I'm just north of NYC, so we get cold winters and snow. 

[wtnhighlander]

A suggestion for the walls: use 2x4 studs, with 2x6 sill and top plate. Alternated the studs between inside and outside walls, then weave the insulation between them. This way there is no solid path from inside wall to outside wall for heat OR sound to follow.

As I recall another member here,@TIODS, works in a recording studio turned woid shop, that was built this way. (Kev, please correct me if my memory is mistaken.)

[..Kev]

4 minutes ago, wtnhighlander said:

A suggestion for the walls: use 2x4 studs, with 2x6 sill and top plate. Alternated the studs between inside and outside walls, then weave the insulation between them. This way there is no solid path from inside wall to outside wall for heat OR sound to follow.

As I recall another member here,@TIODS, works in a recording studio turned woid shop, that was built this way. (Kev, please correct me if my memory is mistaken.)

Close..  The walls between the posts are framed out with 2x4 but, they're all oriented to the inside.  The walls also have a thin rubber below the bottom plate to resist moisture from the concrete and cut down on vibration (noise).  From there, R-19 went in with plenty of open air space.

[raffie]

5 hours ago, -MattK- said:

Will you insulate the floor?  Maybe 2x6 walls for more insulation? That's what I did in my build. I'm just north of NYC, so we get cold winters and snow. 

Matt - yes, the floor will be insulated. We don`t do R-value here but it will be rockwool thing, with anti-critter net and membrane under it. I was thinking about 2x6 for walls, but I have to say that budget is an issue and construction grade lumber is quite expensive here. When I decide the design I will try to get quotes for lumber and see what I can stretch to.

4 hours ago, wtnhighlander said:

A suggestion for the walls: use 2x4 studs, with 2x6 sill and top plate. Alternated the studs between inside and outside walls, then weave the insulation between them. This way there is no solid path from inside wall to outside wall for heat OR sound to follow.

As I recall another member here,@TIODS, works in a recording studio turned woid shop, that was built this way. (Kev, please correct me if my memory is mistaken.)

This sound interesting, with added benefit of airspace and still using 2x4s. Will think about this, thanks!

4 hours ago, TIODS said:

Close..  The walls between the posts are framed out with 2x4 but, they're all oriented to the inside.  The walls also have a thin rubber below the bottom plate to resist moisture from the concrete and cut down on vibration (noise).  From there, R-19 went in with plenty of open air space.

Ok, thank You. Was this in a stick frame or in pole/post construction. While I can imagine what wtnhighlander said, I can`t picture Your solution (can`t think of a way to sheet the walls if using 2x6s sill and top plate, with 2x4s on the inside).

And off-topic a bit - I tried to add rep thingy but when hitting the + it does not do anything. Is there a limit or something?

Thanks for the ideas.

[..Kev]

1 hour ago, raffie said:

Ok, thank You. Was this in a stick frame or in pole/post construction. While I can imagine what wtnhighlander said, I can`t picture Your solution (can`t think of a way to sheet the walls if using 2x6s sill and top plate, with 2x4s on the inside).

And off-topic a bit - I tried to add rep thingy but when hitting the + it does not do anything. Is there a limit or something?

Thanks for the ideas.

Pole construction.  Essentially, I just created a stud wall between the posts to attach drywall to.

[wdwerker]

The rep thing is other people's opinion of you. Not something you can influence except by participating in the Forum.

[Chet]

If you like something that a person posted you can add to their rep by clicking the "like this" on the right side of their post.

[Ronn W]

I ran some quick numbers on your beams and joists.  Because you spans are quite short, I think the sizes you have chosen are plenty strong.   If you have concerns about one particular area or piece of equipment, just double up a joist.  If your subfloor can be T&G that would be a plus.

 

Don't forget to but blocking in between you studs for hanging cabinets, etc.

[raffie]

9 hours ago, Ronn W said:

I ran some quick numbers on your beams and joists.  Because you spans are quite short, I think the sizes you have chosen are plenty strong.   If you have concerns about one particular area or piece of equipment, just double up a joist.  If your subfloor can be T&G that would be a plus.

 

Don't forget to but blocking in between you studs for hanging cabinets, etc.

Thank You for this. I take it You are referring to the initial post with beams being doubled 2x8s and sub floor being 2x6s? For a peace of mind I think I will go with at least 2x8 joists, doubled up around the middle of the structure and around the perimeter. Stronger and more space for insulation. Yes, T&G OSB is available around here so will use this.

[sjeff70]

I wonder if a permit would be required for this structure in your area. 

[raffie]

2 hours ago, sjeff70 said:

I wonder if a permit would be required for this structure in your area. 

Not for this structure. Simplifying - Anything not over 35 square meters footprint and not higher than 5 meters (roughly 370 sq f, and 16 f high) can be build just by telling the "local gov" that i`m wanting to build this. All I need is a description, plan and elevations (and these don`t have to be certified by Architect/Engineer). If they don`t object within I week I can start building. Anything bigger - I need a permit, signed plans and calculations, acceptance from "local gov" etc. (it`s a very invloved and costly process).