15-20K for shop overhaul. Need ideas and what would you buy?


Cygnus A

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, Eric. said:

Yeah the 2k you spend on a Roubo is far from a "waste."  It's where you spend the bulk of your time in the shop.  It's like saying it's a waste to put decent tires on your vehicle.

More than that.  It's like saying it's a waste to buy a car at all because a tricycle will get you from A to B.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, bgreenb said:

More than that.  It's like saying it's a waste to buy a car at all because a tricycle will get you from A to B.

LOL  I love hyperbole!  The truth is somewhere between our analogies.  But the fact is, the expense of a Roubo is far from wasted money.  Especially in the design and hardware for the bench.  We don't need to debate materials again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok now I guess I kinda wanna play this game.  My shop just burned down and I am starting from scratch with a 20k budget.  I am going to assume that the 20k budget is only for "major tools", so things like handheld routers, drills, drivers, blades, consumables, etc., are coming out of some other budget.  Call it petty cash :).  Note that I'm assuming I can always wait for the next 15% PM sale so I'm knocking 15% off the top of every PM machine.

Here's how I'm spending my money.  

PM 12" HH jointer:  $6000  (This is kind of off the top of my head - I would look into the comparable hammer/felder 12 or 16" model as well)

PM 20" HH planer:  $3500

Roubo hardware and lumber:  $1500 

PM1500:  $2300

Incra router lift, table top, fence:  $1000

Sawstop 3HP ICS:  $4000

CT26 and ETS150/5:  $1000

HF DC:  $200

I'd be very happy with that setup for a long time.  My first upgrade after that would be to a 5HP cyclone.  After that I'd go for a tracksaw and drum sander.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that's close to what my list would be too, with a few minor changes.

I'd get a 15" HH planer instead of the 20".  It's super rare that I need that much planer capacity, especially considering you only have 12" jointer capacity.  If I really needed to level a wide board or panel I'd just do it on the drum sander...which is a tool that I would want to add as soon as I had more money. :)  A 20" planer makes more sense if you have a 16" jointer.

I'd probably buy a cheaper fence system for the router table.  I do appreciate the micro-adjust on the Incra...that comes in really handy.  But I don't use the other 90% of the features the Incra fence offers.  That's a big price tag for micro-adjust.  A good lift, table and motor still costs quite a bit, so the savings wouldn't be huge there.

Honestly to fully pimp the shop properly you'd need closer to 30k...so you could add that drum sander, track saw, Domino, drill press, and second bandsaw for curves.  Then down the road upgrade the DC.  I only have a crap 2hp unit, but I've grown accustomed to it, and as nice as a legit DC system would be...I don't know if I care enough to drop that kind of coin.  If I worked in my basement it would be an absolute priority.  Out in the garage it hardly matters, and I just wear my respirator when it makes sense to do so, and clean up with the backpack blower from time to time.  The bulk of the mess is contained with the 2hp system.  And there's no eliminating dust entirely, because not every tool you use can be efficiently collected from.

I really don't know how important a jointer larger than 8" would be to me.  It's adequate the vast majority of the time and when it's not I just flatten one side by hand, which usually only takes a few minutes.  If I was a real woodworker and bought logs and used huge wide boards all the time, a bigger jointer would be way more important.  But I'm a peasant so that's not a problem I have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Eric. said:

Yeah the 2k you spend on a Roubo is far from a "waste."  It's where you spend the bulk of your time in the shop.  It's like saying it's a waste to put decent tires on your vehicle.

Yea I guess waste was a wrong word, but this is coming from someone who isn't in the shop everyday and when I am, I only use a handful of hand tools so I make due and am not a well oiled machine of being quick at anything haha.  Of course if/whenever I decide to make some kind of bench, I'd probably prefer something like Shane built and not the roubo. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Eric. said:

 

I'd probably buy a cheaper fence system for the router table.  I do appreciate the micro-adjust on the Incra...that comes in really handy.  But I don't use the other 90% of the features the Incra fence offers.  That's a big price tag for micro-adjust.  A good lift, table and motor still costs quite a bit, so the savings wouldn't be huge there.

 

I suspect this is because you've never had anything but the incra...is that true? :)

IMO, the micro adjust itself is worth the extra.  I never use any of the other features either.  This is the reason I absolutely HATED the jessem fence.  It was almost impossible to get it positioned exactly right, and even when you did, it would shift ever so slightly as you tightened it down.  

Keep in mind that I'd consider the router table my #1 or #1A joinery machine, whereas IIRC you don't really use it much for joinery, so that definitely changes the priority.  I also love period furniture, which means I do a lot of sliding dovetails.  Using that micro adjust to dial in the fit of an SDT is worth the cost to me.  

22 minutes ago, Eric. said:

 

I'd get a 15" HH planer instead of the 20". 

I really don't know how important a jointer larger than 8" would be to me.  

Yeah, if the $20k was all I would ever have to spend, or would be all I had for a long time, I'd probably drop those down to 15" planer and 8" jointer and use the extra on a tracksaw and drum sander.  I'm kind of assuming I'd be able to get the extra $10k to really pimp everything out within another year or two after the initial 20k drop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea I guess waste was a wrong word, but this is coming from someone who isn't in the shop everyday and when I am, I only use a handful of hand tools so I make due and am not a well oiled machine of being quick at anything haha.  Of course if/whenever I decide to make some kind of bench, I'd probably prefer something like Shane built and not the roubo. 

Fair enough. I have used my hand tools so much more frequently - and more effectively - since I finished my Roubo. Having a work surface with a tail vise has been one of the best things for me as far as making hand tools usable. I used to get cut all the time because I didn't have a proper workholding solution. My results were poor because I couldn't exert the necessary force to use hand tools properly. But now that I have my Roubo, I'm learning to love my hand tools and they are seeing a lot more use. One doesn't tend to think of a workbench as a "hand tool," but it is as necessary for hand tool use as a good fence is for a table saw: you can get by without it, but you won't be doing much, you won't get good results, and you definitely won't enjoy it as much.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Gixxerjoe04 said:

Yea I guess waste was a wrong word, but this is coming from someone who isn't in the shop everyday and when I am, I only use a handful of hand tools so I make due and am not a well oiled machine of being quick at anything haha.  Of course if/whenever I decide to make some kind of bench, I'd probably prefer something like Shane built and not the roubo. 

I'll admit that a Roubo with Cadillac hardware is definitely closer to luxury than necessity on the scale, since the reality is that any bench with vises "can work."  But a pimped out bench is something that pumps the shop-time enjoyment factor full of steroids.  I just like using it, the same way I prefer using a shiny new perfectly tuned Lie Nielsen hand plane over my grandpa's beat up old Stanley.  It's more fun, and fun is what it's all about for a hobbyist.

 

1 minute ago, bgreenb said:

I suspect this is because you've never had anything but the incra...is that true? :)

 

Yes, that's true.  I know I would absolutely miss the micro-adjust...but that's pretty much all I'd miss.

 

1 minute ago, bgreenb said:

Keep in mind that I'd consider the router table my #1 or #1A joinery machine, whereas IIRC you don't really use it much for joinery, so that definitely changes the priority.  I also love period furniture, which means I do a lot of sliding dovetails.  Using that micro adjust to dial in the fit of an SDT is worth the cost to me. 

 

I use it for some joinery.  That's how I've always done my sliding DTs, but now with the MFT I would no longer need the table for that.  It's project-dependent...sometimes it comes in handy, sometimes I finish a project without ever rolling it out.  Don't get me wrong, I do love the Incra set-up...it just kind of bothers me when I paid up for features I'll never use.  (The vast world of dovetail stuff you can do with it, primarily...that's the thing they push when marketing their system and I assume it's how they get away with charging so much.  And although I have used it in the past, I seriously doubt I ever will again.)  The truth is, the thing I use my RT for the most is pattern routing, and you don't need ANY fence for that.

I always say "I like options," and the Incra definitely gives you options.  It's a very versatile system and I'm not sure why I always think of it as a semi-regrettable purchase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is what I would do... :)

HF DC - $200 

DC hose with quick connect kit from Rockler $100

Felder AD941 16" jointer/planer - $11,138

Laguna 1412 - $1100

Hammer K3 Winner table saw 79x48 - $5400

You have around 3K to play with. Plenty for a router table and wood/hardware for your roubo.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best way to get current pricing on Felder/Hammer is to call the rep. They are very good at returning calls.

 

Both make stand alone units. Not a huge savings on them, so a combo is the best value.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Gixxerjoe04 said:

I probably still wouldn't waste the $1,500-2k to build a roubo

I don't see how you could call that a waste. My 1st workbench was a 2x4 & plywood piece that was pretty sturdy, but no comparison to the 500lb bench (not a Roubo though) I've got now. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Llama said:

Best way to get current pricing on Felder/Hammer is to call the rep. They are very good at returning calls.

Wait...call on a telephone and talk to a sales rep?  Surely you're joking!!!   :)

20 minutes ago, Llama said:

Both make stand alone units. Not a huge savings on them, so a combo is the best value.

Combo isn't for me :) I don't care if it takes 5 seconds to change from one to the other...it's 5 seconds too many :)

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I sent them an email from the site. Had an email back an hour later. Contrast to minimax where it took them 6 months to respond.

 

I get the standalone vs combo "argument". For me it came down to cost, and space. This coupled with the easy changeovers, and I was sold. MattK did a great video on his Hammer. The Felder addresses all of the negatives he had, so with an open mind and open wallet I decided on the Felder. In its simplest form, it came down to that damn hand wheel to crank the planer table and bed length. This is a machine that will (damn well better) last me forever. I couldn't see turning the pirate wheel for the next decade or two. Aside from that, the Felder has a more robust package. The digital read out is really just icing on the cake.

 

I went back and forth on that decision a few times before I decided to purchase. In the end, you really can't get a better unit for less money. For roughly the same money you will end up with a 12" pm jointer and 15" pm planer. Not that those are bad choices... but 16" is better than 12" :)

 

I think you will be close to 8k with the Felder standalone jointer. And roughly the same for the matching planer. And if you're going to spend 16k you should look at the Format 4 20" machines.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Llama said:

 

 

I think you will be close to 8k with the Felder standalone jointer. And roughly the same for the matching planer. And if you're going to spend 16k you should look at the Format 4 20" machines.

Yeah I think I would go with the 16" felder jointer and then the 20" PM planer.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, drzaius said:

I don't see how you could call that a waste. My 1st workbench was a 2x4 & plywood piece that was pretty sturdy, but no comparison to the 500lb bench (not a Roubo though) I've got now. 

Was a poor word choice, but for what I do and some people do, can make a cheaper bench that would work just fine.  Mainly because I haven't gotten into using a bunch of different hand tools yet.  I do plan on making a better bench/outfeed table at some point but will be like an mft.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Gixxerjoe04 said:

Was a poor word choice, but for what I do and some people do, can make a cheaper bench that would work just fine.  Mainly because I haven't gotten into using a bunch of different hand tools yet.  I do plan on making a better bench/outfeed table at some point but will be like an mft.

 

FWIW (and I know some people hate the word - but there's not another more succinct way to put it)...I'm a down-the-middle hybrid woodworker, and I find the Roubo to be just as versatile and useful when I'm working with machines as I do when working with hand tools.  It's all about work holding...doesn't really matter what tool you're using.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, bgreenb said:

Ok now I guess I kinda wanna play this game.  My shop just burned down and I am starting from scratch with a 20k budget.  I am going to assume that the 20k budget is only for "major tools", so things like handheld routers, drills, drivers, blades, consumables, etc., are coming out of some other budget.  Call it petty cash :).  Note that I'm assuming I can always wait for the next 15% PM sale so I'm knocking 15% off the top of every PM machine.

Here's how I'm spending my money.  

PM 12" HH jointer:  $6000  (This is kind of off the top of my head - I would look into the comparable hammer/felder 12 or 16" model as well)

PM 20" HH planer:  $3500

Roubo hardware and lumber:  $1500 

PM1500:  $2300

Incra router lift, table top, fence:  $1000

Sawstop 3HP ICS:  $4000

CT26 and ETS150/5:  $1000

HF DC:  $200

I'd be very happy with that setup for a long time.  My first upgrade after that would be to a 5HP cyclone.  After that I'd go for a tracksaw and drum sander.  

6

I like the idea of a 12" jointer but 6k is too much to spend on a single tool with, even with a 20K budget. It would be a tough call between the 12" Grizzly or the 8" PM with HH, they are roughly the same price. 

No question that a 15 HH planer would the way to go vice spending the extra money the 20"

I think with a 20K budget, I would still want to spend money on DC, it's not sexy but it seems like it would be money well spent. If I was trying to save some money on DC, I might opt for a portable Dust Gorilla or one of the new Laguna Flux units instead of going full tilt on duct system. The one advantage of a portable unit is that it would allow time to tweak your setup. I imagine when setting up a big shop for the first time your tool layout is going is going to get tweaked a bit over the first 3-5 years. I would not want to have to move the ducting around every time I decided to change my shop layout. After about 5 years you probably have a good idea of what your workflow is and might be a good time to invest in a legit DC system. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW I have the 12" Hammer combo unit, and switching between the two is very easy.  Takes less than a minute, and the jointer stays true, even after many switches.  With a budget like that, I would definitely go for one of the larger combos, likely save a bit and get a Hammer (rather than the Felder).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Art said:

FWIW I have the 12" Hammer combo unit, and switching between the two is very easy.  Takes less than a minute, and the jointer stays true, even after many switches.  With a budget like that, I would definitely go for one of the larger combos, likely save a bit and get a Hammer (rather than the Felder).

what is the current retail price of a 12" hammer combo? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.