15-20K for shop overhaul. Need ideas and what would you buy?

[Llama]

4 minutes ago, Mike. said:

what is the current retail price of a 12" hammer combo? 

Around 4K

I think the silent power is a 1K upgrade.

[Guest]

Okay, even though I shat on the concept of blowing $20k at once, here is how I would spend my first $20K, knowing what I know now:

Tablesaw: Sawstop 3hp 30" PCS: $2700

Combo Jointer/Planer: 12" Hammer: $4000

Jointer: 6" PM: $900

Drum Sander: 38" Woodmaster Dual Drum: $6000

Bandsaw: 20" Minimax: $4000

Bandsaw: Laguna 1412: $1100

Domino 500: $1000

Those might seem some like some strange choices, but they are all absolutely life time machines.  None of them would ever need to be upgraded.  For router a table, I would just improvise something until I had my next round of capital.  It might seem strange having a jointer and combo machine, but I'd keep the PM set up for edges and the combo machine usually set up for planing.  When wide boards come in and I need the 12" capability, I would have it.  To me the bandsaws are a no brainer.  I have the PM1500 now, and like it, but in a perfect world I'd have a bigger saw and the 1412 seems like the perfect complement to a big saw.  

$6000 on a drum sander might seem stupid, but sanding sucks in a huge way and the dual drum, two grit functionality of the woodmaster can literally get all your flat sanding down to a single pass or two.  

[Llama]

Tommy Mac used to have two jointers. There has to be a good reason for it...

[drzaius]

15 hours ago, jmaichel said:

I think with a 20K budget, I would still want to spend money on DC, it's not sexy but it seems like it would be money well spent.

Au contraire, DC is sexy as can be. Cleaner air, cleaner shop, cleaner everything, makes me feel all... I'll be in my bunk.

Really though, with a budget of $20K, at least  $2500 - $3500 of that should go into collection.

[Art]

14 hours ago, Mike. said:

what is the current retail price of a 12" hammer combo? 

I paid about $4500 Canadian for mine, with the spiral cutterhead about a year ago.

[Vyrolan]

My favorite part of this whole thread is that instantly the "15-20k" from the title became just "20k".

[Llama]

1 minute ago, Vyrolan said:

My favorite part of this whole thread is that instantly the "15-20k" from the title became just "20k".

When in reality it should be 30K  

[Vyrolan]

Just now, Llama said:

When in reality it should be 30K  

It was supposed to read "15 + 20"k right?    So we're at 35k boys...

[Llama]

1 hour ago, drzaius said:

Au contraire, DC is sexy as can be. Cleaner air, cleaner shop, cleaner everything, makes me feel all... I'll be in my bunk.

Really though, with a budget of $20K, at least  $2500 - $3500 of that should go into collection.

I don't get the obsession with DC. For most of us, we can get by with the lowly HF unit for around $200, add an air cleaner in the ceiling and you're good. Once your equipment and flow are established, and you don't have anything else to buy, then you should spend the money for a better unit. Taking money away from tools for DC might bite you... Especially on a relatively tight budget. Now, if the guy said he has 50K to spend, yeah go for it... But, getting the pieces you need to make stuff, and a "good enough" DC for now is fine.

There are many things not being accounted for in this list. Mainly hand tools. This adds up very quickly, and are important in my workflow. I'd rather have an arsenal of hand tools, (planes, chisels, hand saws) than spend 3K on DC. Especially since OP still needs a bench.

[bgreenb]

42 minutes ago, Llama said:

I don't get the obsession with DC. For most of us, we can get by with the lowly HF unit for around $200, add an air cleaner in the ceiling and you're good. Once your equipment and flow are established, and you don't have anything else to buy, then you should spend the money for a better unit. Taking money away from tools for DC might bite you... Especially on a relatively tight budget. Now, if the guy said he has 50K to spend, yeah go for it... But, getting the pieces you need to make stuff, and a "good enough" DC for now is fine.

There are many things not being accounted for in this list. Mainly hand tools. This adds up very quickly, and are important in my workflow. I'd rather have an arsenal of hand tools, (planes, chisels, hand saws) than spend 3K on DC. Especially since OP still needs a bench.

Yeah I agree and I'll add that part of my assumption is that we're dealing with hobbyists here.  Like I'm in my shop for an hour a day if I'm lucky, a bit more on the weekends.  I'm ok with the risk associated with just having an HF unit and wearing a respirator when sanding and doing other "really fine dust operations."

If I were starting a business tomorrow where I'm going to be in my shop for 8-12+ hours per day my priorities would change and I would absolutely spend the money on a "proper" DC system.

[Pwk5017]

30 minutes ago, drzaius said:

Au contraire, DC is sexy as can be. Cleaner air, cleaner shop, cleaner everything, makes me feel all... I'll be in my bunk.

Really though, with a budget of $20K, at least  $2500 - $3500 of that should go into collection.

Agreed, I had a cyclone and spiral ducting before i had a stationary planer, cabinet saw, drum sander etc. Dust collection is a purchase that is not cost effective to upgrade down the road. Not to mention it would be beyond annoying to resize your ductwork when you upgrade from a 1.5hp unit to a 5hp cyclone. With your budget, i would buy a unit to grow into, not a unit to upgrade when you grow. 

 

Wont argue anyone's suggestions, but I would be real tempted to buy a 20-30hp phase perfect converter for $5-6k, and then gobble up a bunch of 3phase SCM/minimax/other middle of the road italian manufacturer gear at auction/retiring shops. Just going off memory, between auctions and craigslist, $15,000 goes a long way towards a very high quality and large jointer, planer, bandsaw, and table saw. This route absolutely isnt for everyone, but if you have the space and the funds all at once, it is compelling. I dont know the guy's name on this forum, but he has a northfield no4 table saw, i think a northfield 20" planer, and some other great industrial machines out of auctions. This strategy sucks for someone without the space and the immediate means(the road i took), because you would blow your whole budget on a converter box that is useless. If you have the capital on hand and a comfort level for used machinery, then it makes the most sense in the world. A lot of people cant get over the latter issue.

 

To give an idea of this option:

16" straight knife jointer--$1000 or less. Had a 16" delta invicta go for $750 at a local shop, and ive seen several scmi's across the country for similar amounts

20-24" planer-- $1500-2500 for a <10-15 year old euro planer. If you wanted, this number could be $500 or less for the massive powermatics of the 50s-80s.

66s and unisaws sell for pennies. I bought 3 unisaws last year for $150-200 a piece.

slider--not a martin or altendorf, but very easily acquired for less than $3,000 for a good one.

20-24" bandsaw--$1000-2,500 depending on age and size

Honestly, i would consider a 36" single head widebelt, if you find the right one. 

Spend your remaining $4,000 on dust collection and maybe a domino.

 

Depending on your location, you might require a couple grand for total delivery, but depending on the deal it can be worth it. I bought a 20" italian laguna for less than $2,000 with shipping around $300. If you are buying a huge jointer for $1000 and paying $350-400 to ship it, its still a great deal. 

[Llama]

11 minutes ago, Pwk5017 said:

Dust collection is a purchase that is not cost effective to upgrade down the road. Not to mention it would be beyond annoying to resize your ductwork when you upgrade from a 1.5hp unit to a 5hp cyclone.

No need.... HF is a a one unit DC. Just pop the hose on things as needed. Then, when you know your situation, spend the money once and be done. 

[bgreenb]

12 minutes ago, Llama said:

No need.... HF is a a one unit DC. Just pop the hose on things as needed. Then, when you know your situation, spend the money once and be done. 

Yup, I ran flex hose all around my shop using my HF unit.  Took me about 2-3 hours.  It's far from ideal but it keeps the shop clean and allows me to use DC without moving it around all the time.  When I have the cash/time to upgrade to a proper cyclone, I'll shed zero tears about tearing down all my flex hose and putting up the PVC or nordfab or whatever.

[Llama]

1 minute ago, bgreenb said:

Yup, I ran flex hose all around my shop using my HF unit.  Took me about 2-3 hours.  It's far from ideal but it keeps the shop clean and allows me to use DC without moving it around all the time.  When I have the cash/time to upgrade to a proper cyclone, I'll shed zero tears about tearing down all my flex hose and putting up the PVC or nordfab or whatever.

I like the Rockler flex hose, just pop that thing on a machine when needed. I might do something like you did in my current shop. We'll see how much suction that Felder needs. 

[bgreenb]

Just now, Llama said:

I like the Rockler flex hose, just pop that thing on a machine when needed. I might do something like you did in my current shop. We'll see how much suction that Felder needs. 

If you go my route, just make sure that you locate the DC unit as close as possible to the jointer so you have barely any duct run.  That's the only machine I've found that is finnicky about the amount of suction (or, finnicky enough to matter in this context).  Table saw is fine regardless, even the drum sander is fine (pun intended), planer is a moot point because I have the 735 with the rocket propelled dust ejector, bandsaw DC sucks (pun intended) regardless of what you do so not worth worrying about, ditto for router table.  The jointer is really the only one I've found to benefit from having as clear and short a run of flex hose as possible.

[derekcohen]

On 03/06/2017 at 4:41 AM, Cygnus A said:

I am about to spend a lot of money and could use some advice. I've done a lot of research and came up with the tool list below, but that doesn't mean it cant be tweaked with some help from you guys. I am in the fortunate position of being able to spend a lot of money at once and start the shop over from scratch.

I will have a 24x20 space to use as my workshop. I can likely spend up to 20K for the overhaul. This will include all new tools, lighting, materials to build storage, etc.. I have a thickness planar, Sawstop TS, plenty of general hand tools and cordless power tools.

Immediate needs are tools to fabricate cabinets, desks, built-ins, etc.. for the house. So any suggestions or tips on what tools I should invest in to accomplish that would be much appreciated.

I've put this list together which puts me at around 14k total cost:

Jointer: Powermatic 1610082 8" Parallelogram w/ spiral head
Jointer Base: Powermatic 1610078 Mobile Base
Bandsaw: Laguna: 1 4/12
Drum Sander: Powermatic 2244
Tracksaw: Festool TS 55
Tracksaw Track: Festool 3000
Tracksaw Clamps: Festool 494594
Sander: Festool ETS 150
Router: Festool OF 1400
Paint Gun: Fuji HVLP Q5
Domino: Festool DF 500
Dust Collection: Festool CT 36 E
Dust Collection: Clear Vue CV1800LH
Miter Saw: Bosch GCM12SD

What items would you add/remove/replace?

Lose the jointer, jointer base, drum sander and paint gun. They are not a good way to spend money.

Question: have you built anything? Have you built any furniture? If not, budget for a course first. 

Where is the planer/thicknesser? A 8" wide jointer is a waste of time. Often you want at least 10" and 12" is better. I suspect that you want to use a drum sander as a planer. This is inefficient. Get a combo jointer/planer machine, such as the Hammer A3-31, which will give you 12" in width. 

I agree with the CT26 over the CT36 (I have the CT26 into a Dust Commander - the extra capacity of the CT36 would be wasted).

I'd rather have a tablesaw with slider than the tracksaw and mitre saw (well I do - the slider offers accurate crosscutting as well as ripping). 

I would purchase tools as you need them, rather than buying everything at once. Find out what you need. What do you plan to build? 

Where are the handtools? Chisels, block plane, smoother, mallet, marking tools, squares? Sharpening gear? Have you budgeted for these?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

 

 

[bgreenb]

2 minutes ago, derekcohen said:

Lose the jointer, jointer base, drum sander and paint gun. They are not a good way to spend money.

Question: have you built anything? Have you used any furniture? If not, budget for a course first. 

Where is the planer/thicknesser? A 8" wide jointer is a waste of time. Often you want at least 10" and 12" is better. I suspect that you want to use a drum sander as a planer. This is inefficient. Get a combo jointer/planer machine, such as the Hammer A3-31, which will give you 12" in width. 

I would purchase tools as you need them, rather than buying everything at once. Find out what you need. What do you plan to build? 

Where are the handtools? Chisels, block plane, smoother, mallet, marking tools, squares? Sharpening gear? Have you budgeted for these?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

 

 

Alert the moderators!!!!  It seems @Mike. and @Llama have hacked derek's account!  

 

[Eric.]

1 hour ago, Vyrolan said:

My favorite part of this whole thread is that instantly the "15-20k" from the title became just "20k".

LOL

1 hour ago, Llama said:

When in reality it should be 30K  

Or 50.   Honestly if someone asked me how much I've got in my shop I'd have no idea what to say...but I'm sure it's well north of 50.  Include the lumber stash and you could probably tack on another 10k or more.  And it never seems to end.  By the time I die I probably could have retired a millionaire if I hadn't blown it all on woodworking.  But money ain't no good when you're dead.

1 hour ago, Llama said:

I don't get the obsession with DC.

Agreed.  With the caveat that your shop isn't in your basement.  In that case I would definitely want a hardcore DC system and air cleaners.  Being in the garage is almost like working outside. LOL  Who cares.  Wear a respirator.  The dust just becomes part of life.

[derekcohen]

Wear a respirator.  The dust is just becomes part of life.

If one plans to use power tools, then good dust control is vital. For life! It is not the large dust particles that kill. It is the sub .3 micron dust that will do you in. This is why I may use power to rough out boards, but I then use handtools as much as possible. I really do not enjoy woodworking wearing a mask and hearing protection. I'd rather listen to jazz as I work. I do.

 

Alert the moderators!!!!  It seems @Mike. and @Llama have hacked derek's account!   

My power tools include a Hammer A3-31 combo, Hammer N4400 bandsaw, and an old Carbatec tablesaw with slider I've had for 25 years. Plus Dust Collection into a Super Dust Deputy. Routers (I have a bunch of Elus) are used with a CT26 into a Dust Commander. I rarely sand anything.

Mainly I use handtools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Pwk5017]

Fair points on DC. One, i am in a basement, so im dead effing serious about it. Two, i started with a 1.5hp unit with the wynn filter and thien baffle rolling it around to each tool. If that works for you then you dont know how the other half lives. That system loaded the filter quickly and was really annoying to connect to each tool. It ended up staying put after awhile and i clustered each tool to within 10-15' of it. With a fresh filter it was ok, but that quickly degraded to failing miserably. Lastly, my drum sander would become a nightmare with that old collector. I get a dust collector doesnt perform an actual building function, but the right setup makes things so effortless and pleasant. For 15-20k, i would opt for that added comfort and convenience. In the summer i only wear a respirator when its comfortable. I cant imagine being in a non-conditioned garage wearing a half or full face respirator all the time. 

[legenddc]

What's with the dust collection issues in a basement? I would assume it matters more if you're in an unfinished basement and I understand if you're by a HVAC system, but in a finished room with no return vent or HVAC system is where I get confused.

[Eric.]

12 minutes ago, legenddc said:

What's with the dust collection issues in a basement? I would assume it matters more if you're in an unfinished basement and I understand if you're by a HVAC system, but in a finished room with no return vent or HVAC system is where I get confused.

I just wouldn't want dust getting tracked all over my house.  Containment would be a much bigger issue.  And you're gonna at least have vents down there, if not cold air return..if not the air handler itself.  I wouldn't want that dust getting into the ducts or any part of the system.

[legenddc]

6 minutes ago, Eric. said:

I just wouldn't want dust getting tracked all over my house.  Containment would be a much bigger issue.  And you're gonna at least have vents down there, if not cold air return..if not the air handler itself.  I wouldn't want that dust getting into the ducts or any part of the system.

I haven't done too much in my basement, but even after sanding for hours and hours without a vacuum hooked up, I didn't have anything outside the shop. Some does get tracked up the stairs from my clothes, but the 2 year old makes a bigger mess than I do.

I have made it a point to check the HVAC air filter after doing a big project, but haven't seen the need to change it because of that.

[pkinneb]

1 hour ago, legenddc said:

What's with the dust collection issues in a basement? I would assume it matters more if you're in an unfinished basement and I understand if you're by a HVAC system, but in a finished room with no return vent or HVAC system is where I get confused.

If you can get in the room dust can get out  

 

[Eric.]

1 hour ago, legenddc said:

I haven't done too much in my basement, but even after sanding for hours and hours without a vacuum hooked up, I didn't have anything outside the shop. Some does get tracked up the stairs from my clothes, but the 2 year old makes a bigger mess than I do.

I have made it a point to check the HVAC air filter after doing a big project, but haven't seen the need to change it because of that.

If you completed a larger project from start to finish in your basement without a good DC system, I think you'd find it makes a bigger mess than you realize.  I have a ducted 2hp DC in my garage and I have to clean the shop out with a backpack blower pretty frequently or I'm balls deep in it.