Box joints by hand?

[MisterDrow]

So I'm building a civil war era ammo crate for my Father-in-Law (he's a huge CW buff). The design calls for box joints. I was feeling too lazy to pull out my dado stack the other night and thought, "Gee, box joints are just straight cuts. Ought to be easy enough by hand. Also, it's the Civil War... it's not like they had dado stacks back then."

What I learned was that box joints are about the least forgiving joints when it comes to doing them by hand. The first couple I did with a dovetail saw and followed up with a coping saw but opted to do the rest with a bandsaw in the name of efficiency. Wow. I'm never doing these without a dado stack again.

Am I way off base here? Granted I'm still very inexperienced and learning a lot when it comes to joinery but I have had better luck hand cutting dovetails than box joints. Any tips aside from just going dado stack? What the hell did they use in the 1860s?

[Llama]

13 minutes ago, MisterDrow said:

What the hell did they use in the 1860s?

Nails or dovetails

I would never do box joints by hand unless it was the G&G kind. 

[MisterDrow]

1 minute ago, Lester Burnham said:

I haven't tried hand cut box joints yet but I think it'd be a little (very little) easier than dovetails because there are no angles to deal with. How did you go about doing it? I'd go at it like dovetails. Cut one side and use it to mark the other side then sneak up on the right fit. 

That's probably where I went wrong. I laid everything out and then cut, leaving the pins proud on each so I could pare them down. That part went okay, for the most part (there's a couple with some gaps I'm not happy with). The part that went badly was the gulley parts of the joint. Getting them even and looking decent has been a nightmare.

For this project (and because time is a factor) I'm just buying more wood and doing it with the dado blade but I'm genuinely wondering how to go about this by hand in the future.

[MisterDrow]

1 minute ago, Llama said:

Nails or dovetails

I would never do box joints by hand unless it was the G&G kind. 

The plans for this box were taken from an actual CW-era ammo box... apparently box joints were pretty common for them. I know that prior to the 19th century you didn't see them because there weren't machines that made them easy to do but that information implies that at some point in the 19th century said machinery did become available so I assume that's what was used on these boxes back then. Perhaps an interesting google search would result from looking into what machines were available to woodworkers at the time.

[Llama]

Just now, MisterDrow said:

what machines were available to woodworkers at the time

Mostly water or foot powered equipment. 

I would like to see the box you made, and the pic you used for reference. 

[Tom Cancelleri]

I believe you need Ye olde box joint jig. 

[MisterDrow]

Just now, Llama said:

Mostly water or foot powered equipment. 

I would like to see the box you made, and the pic you used for reference. 

This is the book I got the plan from. I can share pictures of the design when I get home. The box itself hasn't yet been assembled as I want to fix these horrid joints.

I know that a lot of this comes from a lack of finesse and experience on my part. I'm sure most folks here could have ended up with MUCH nicer results than I had. I've seen other woodworkers online scoff at why one would try to do box joints by hand, though, so it makes me wonder.

[MisterDrow]

2 minutes ago, Tom Cancelleri said:

I believe you need Ye olde box joint jig. 

That's what I'm going to do tonight... the plan is to throw together a simple box joint jig to clamp to my miter gauge so I can get this done with much better results. I should have gone this route first. I need to stop rushing parts of things and stick with what I know I can do with my skillset and save the experimenting for my own time, not on making things for others.

[BonPacific]

Out of curiosity, I looked for pictures of Civil-War era wood-shops. This picture is technically from the reconstruction era, but I'd imaging some of that equipment existed beforehand. 

Looks like a shaper up front? and possibly a planer or molding machine in the background. @Tom King probably knows exactly what they used.

[Tom Cancelleri]

I found the following when looking for CW ammo crates. 

Here's Ye Olde Box Joint

 

Here's Ye Olde Dovetail

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, MisterDrow said:

I've seen other woodworkers online scoff at why one would try to do box joints by hand, though, so it makes me wonder.

I don't think people scoff because it is difficult (or any more difficult than a dovetail).  People scoff because it seems pointless.  The primary advantage of a box joint over a dovetail is that it can quickly be cut by machine.  A dovetail is superior in almost all regards* (both aesthetically and it offers mechanical strength), so if you are going to go through the trouble of cutting a joint by hand, a dovetail makes a lot more sense than a box joint, and hand cut dovetails have the added benefit of looking better than machine cut. 

 

 

*I know, the internet's favorite canadian psuedo-scientist says box joints are stronger.  He is a punk who builds ugly furniture. Dovetails still look better. 

 

 

[MisterDrow]

1 minute ago, Mike. said:

*I know, the internet's favorite canadian psuedo-scientist says box joints are stronger.  He is a punk who builds ugly furniture. Dovetails still look better. 

He's much more an engineer than an artist

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, MisterDrow said:

 

I know that a lot of this comes from a lack of finesse and experience on my part. I'm sure most folks here could have ended up with MUCH nicer results than I had. I've seen other woodworkers online scoff at why one would try to do box joints by hand, though, so it makes me wonder.

Also, don't beat yourself up too badly.  Look at enough antiques and you will see that horribly gappy dovetails were common.  It was a utilitarian joint meant meant to be cut quickly.  It is modern day woodworkers who have elevated hand cut dovetails to Jessica Alba status.  

 

[Woodenskye]

I say if you want to cut them by hand, cut them by hand.  You may only do it one time, but you can say you did it.

[MisterDrow]

9 minutes ago, Mike. said:

Also, don't beat yourself up too badly.  Look at enough antiques and you will see that horribly gappy dovetails were common.  It was a utilitarian joint meant meant to be cut quickly.  It is modern day woodworkers who have elevated hand cut dovetails to Jessica Alba status.  

 

My perfectionistic tendencies don't help with stuff like this. Very valid point, though.

[Immortan D]

I kinda hate box joints. I tried to do them with my Incra fence and failed because my 1/2" router bit wasn't really 1/2" wide. Of course it took me a week or two to figure that out, after trying everything.

Once I attempted it with my bandsaw. I failed miserably.

I now only do box joints with my PC dovetail jig. Easy as 123. I wouldn't dare attempt them by hand mainly because it's probably gonna be a boring experience. I'd rather do dovetails.

[Unknown craftsman]

2 hours ago, BonPacific said:

Out of curiosity, I looked for pictures of Civil-War era wood-shops. This picture is technically from the reconstruction era, but I'd imaging some of that equipment existed beforehand. 

Looks like a shaper up front? and possibly a planer or molding machine in the background. @Tom King probably knows exactly what they used.

The guy on the planer might even be Toms Grandpappy. 

Cool merican photo I like it.!

[Rapid Roger]

I've made box joints on a scroll saw in the past......

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Rapid Roger
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