Anyone Here Ever Do Welding?

[Wimayo]

Every once and a while, I have a need to do some metal work. In the past I have been able to do some acceptable brazing on light metals with MAP gas and flux coated brazing rods. However, this has definite limitations; not that I ever need to do anything real heavy duty.  I think my needs would be met if I could find something hot enough to braze two pieces of 1/8" mild steel together. I've peen tempted to buy the little systems that include a bottle of MAP and a bottle of oxygen. I guess they give a hotter flame to work with thicker metals. But, I understand, the oxygen only lasts for about 15 min and is rather pricey.. I know that welding these days uses mostly MIG or TIG. I think that this technology is well beyond my needs for occasional light duty use. I'm wondering if one of the old light duty stick welders would serve my purpose. They appear on Craigs List occasionally. What should I watch out for; pros and cons?

[..Kev]

I have a MIG welder that I use from time to time.  They've come way down in price and are really the easiest to learn.

[mat60]

A 90 Amp flux welder would work nicely on 1/8 steel. 99.oo$ or less at HF.  A stick wilder is hard for me to use on thin stock without blowing a hole in my work. My meg is one that uses argon gas and also have a inexpensive flux that was given to me. 

[Tom King]

I can weld anything that can be welded, and some things that can't.   It's a lot more to it than it looks like.  MIG is the easiest to use.  If you can use a hot glue gun, with a little practice, you can use a MIG welder.  It's a REALLY HOT glue gun, and much easier than stick welding.

Get someone to show you how, and it will save time and money, as well as maybe preventing bad habits. 

Look at the little MIG welders in a place like Tractor Supply, or Northern Tool.  If you use gas shielded, you have to grind the two parts down to bare metal.  If you use Flux Cored, the welds will be ugly, and will require getting the flux off to look presentable.  There is no short cut around those steps for either type.

The little flux cored welders can run off of 120V, and are easy to carry around.  When you look at the welders, the specs will tell you the thickest metal you can weld with them.

[wdwerker]

Which little one do you have  ?  I had an uncle and my grandfather that could weld, meant to learn but never got around to it.  My grandfather did teach me some basic machinist techniques & those have transferred to woodworking quite well.  I'm sure most of us could benefit from the ability to weld, repair or fabricate metal. 

[..Kev]

I have a small miller and it's been great.  I have a converted shopping cart that holds the welder, argo bottle, and an oxygen / acetylene set up.

[wdwerker]

My uncle was a master welder back in the 70's and he did teach me that a good fit and clean metal was important.  He believed in cleaning up the weld afterwards .

[mat60]

I agree with Tom but didn't think he wanted to spend allot.  My Century wasn't cheap. 

[Tom King]

My little one is an older version of this one.  I keep a roll of flux cored wire in that one.  My only other MIG welder is a Miller 251 that I keep set up for gas shielded MIG.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200471413_200471413?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Welding > MIG %2B Flux Core Welding > Wirefeed Welders&utm_campaign=Hobart&utm_content=15165&cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=google_PLA&utm_campaign=&mkwid=sVqp8Bl35&pcrid=39155627516&devicetype=c&gclid=Cj0KCQiAyNjRBRCpARIsAPDBnn3oTwFAG3bDfs971tLsTqPFMzOYgPHXMwyOI1b8ZSfrYRTcw-nSXkkaAq9-EALw_wcB

I see all sorts on Craigsllist all the time.  There is no good reason to buy a new one if one off CL works.  I bought the 251 off CL years ago, and it still does a beautiful job.

There is a list of other stuff needed to go along with a welding machine, so the cost of the machine is not admission into the door.  

[wdwerker]

I can see this quickly outpacing my budget or competing with woodworking gear that I earn my living with. 

[Marmotjr]

I have an old Lincoln buzz box that I use from time to time, but it's a stick.  1/8" shouldn't be that difficult on a stick, but it would require some practice with the right settings and rods.  I'm more of a Tig welder, and I'd go that route if I had one, but I haven't Mig'd enough to say which is easier, but if it's as easy as some profess, then it shouldn't be hard at all. 

But the key to getting good at welding is practice.  Go to your local metal supplier and get a bunch of small cutoffs for the thickness you want to deal with.  Whatever setup you go with, do a bunch of practice welds, just basic butt, lap, and angled to start with.  This will give you a feel for how the metal plays.  Cut apart your practice welds with a grinder or bandsaw, take a look to see if you got full penetration, and then weld it together again to do it better.  Then start recreating the welds you'll have to do on your project, so that when you finally do it, you shouldn't run into any nasty surprises.   While there's plenty of great resources on the net for teaching yourself to weld, a mentor is your best way to learn. 

[Wimayo]

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A 90 Amp flux welder would work nicely on 1/8 steel. 99.oo$ or less at HF.  A stick wilder is hard for me to use on thin stock without blowing a hole in my work. My meg is one that uses argon gas and also have a inexpensive flux that was given to me.

For something I would use only maybe once or twice a year, that might be just right. I'm not crazy about HF stuff. Is that one OK? I've seen them on Craigs List for good prices. I've read that the flux units create a "mess" of spattered flux. Can someone elaborate on this? I don't want to mess with gas.

Quote

There is a list of other stuff needed to go along with a welding machine, so the cost of the machine is not admission into the door.

I know I would need a helmet. What else is needed assuming I don't use gas?

[Marmotjr]

Flux is the material that the wire or rod is coated in.   As the flux burns away, it creates a little bubble of inert gas that shields the weld.  On a stick, it leaves a buildup of crud behind, which should be removed.  A brush or welding hammer will knock it off.  I prefer to use a small pneumatic needler.

I'd recommend an auto darkening helmet.  Just makes life easier, and there's no real reason to get a fixed one as the price is pretty low.  A harbor freight one will do fine, I think I got mine from amazon.  Just test it before use.  A bright fluorescent shop light should trip the sensor.  Looking at the sun (carefully!) will also trip it.  We used mine to observe the recent eclipse. 

Gloves.  Get good welding gloves.   A good pair will last a life time for a hobbyist.  Leather.  I prefer a longer gauntlet too. 

I'd recommend a long sleeve shirt too.  I've done some long welds with a SS shirt on, and ended up with really weird tan lines. 

A grinder will be almost required.  Especially for a new welder.  The show surfaces will need ground flush.  A cutting wheel, grinding wheel, and polishing/sanding wheel would definitely come in handy. 

As for buying a welder, just look up reviews on the make/model.  Get a feel for it's reliability.  I've only used high end industrial Tig machines and my old lincoln stick buzz box.  It's 60+ years old, and is almost identical to the ones they still sell at Home depot.  So I'm not going to recommend a specific machine.  But pay attention to it's duty cycle.  If you only plan on doing a couple small welds, then it shouldn't be a problem.  But if you want to do some larger welds, then the duty cycle will come into play. 

[Coop]

How timely! My wife is wanting a bottle tree and from what I’ve seen, most are made from 1/4” to 3/8” rebar. Also, I need to take a small amount from the company as an end of year tax deduct, so have been thinking of a welder. I’ve piddled with rods before and end results look like aftermath from a volcano. So, given a budget of $1,500, is gas or flux the way to go? 

[..Kev]

8 minutes ago, K Cooper said:

How timely! My wife is wanting a bottle tree and from what I’ve seen, most are made from 1/4” to 3/8” rebar. Also, I need to take a small amount from the company as an end of year tax deduct, so have been thinking of a welder. I’ve piddled with rods before and end results look like aftermath from a volcano. So, given a budget of $1,500, is gas or flux the way to go? 

With that budget Coop, I'd be looking at a MIG with an Argon bottle..  You should be well under budget and have the easiest learning curve.

[Coop]

Any make and model would be appreciated. $1,500 is not set in stone, give or take. 

[..Kev]

3 minutes ago, K Cooper said:

Any make and model would be appreciated. $1,500 is not set in stone, give or take. 

There's lots of good ones out there Coop..  Miller is kind of the standard but, Lincoln, Hobart and several others make good ones.

If you check with the local gas supplier, you may be able to get a free bottle in exchange for having it filled at their place when needed.  That's what I did at the old house.  When I needed the bottle filled, I just brought it in and they exchanged it for another of the same size.

[Tom King]

What will be the thickest metal you want to weld?  You need a place to do it where you can make a mess.  Grinding creates a terrible mess, not to mention weld spatter, and I wouldn't want to do it anywhere near where woodworking is done.  If you use gas shielded, there will be a lot of grinding.  The welding is the easy part.

I try to always wear leather boots that I can kick off easily.  There's not much worse than getting a hot little lump of metal in your shoe that you can't get off quickly.  If you don't wear welding clothes, you will burn holes in whatever else you're wearing sooner or later.

Tractor supply exchanges tanks of gas, and if you don't use much, that's about the cheapest way to go.  Around here, the welding supplies places won't fill a tank you don't rent from them for about a hundred bucks a year.  I don't do that much of it, so I just use the Tractor Supply system, which you only have to pay when you take the tank back to exchange, and it doesn't matter how long it has been since you got the last one.

I really like my Millermatic 251.   It's been superceded by the 252 models since I bought mine, but it will do anything I want to do with steel.  It is much easier to control for welding thin stuff than the little 140.  There are other smaller, and larger models, but this one has been great for repairing trailers, and tractor implements.  But it's too big to drag out in the yard, or somewhere else, and requires a 240V circuit.  I think I paid about 1500 for the 251.   It was used, but in really good shape.

[Coop]

25 minutes ago, TIODS said:

There's lots of good ones out there Coop..  Miller is kind of the standard but, Lincoln, Hobart and several others make good ones.

If you check with the local gas supplier, you may be able to get a free bottle in exchange for having it filled at their place when needed.  That's what I did at the old house.  When I needed the bottle filled, I just brought it in and they exchanged it for another of the same size.

As argon is one of the gases we use in filling fire extinguishers, I’m half way there and didn’t know it. 

[Wimayo]

1 hour ago, Marmotjr said:

But pay attention to it's duty cycle.  If you only plan on doing a couple small welds, then it shouldn't be a problem.  But if you want to do some larger welds, then the duty cycle will come into play. 

Do I want AC or DC output?

[wtnhighlander]

One thing I learned from welding lessons many moons ago, DC is much easier to maintain the arc.

[Tom King]

Gas for welding mild steel will have some CO2 mixed with it.  You use different gases for different metals.  You can weld steel with pure Argon, but the arc behaves a lot better if there is some CO2 in the mix.  I think the mix I get from TSC for welding mild steel has 25% CO2 in it.   They don't have a large selection of different gases, but it works fine for regular steel.  Pure Argon is mostly used for welding aluminum, but sometimes you want some Helium in the mix for aluminum.  There is more to welding that it looks like.

[fastev]

DC will weld anything steel. You need AC to weld aluminum, unless you are a supreme badass. 

Material thickness and duty cycle are the most important things to look for. A 120v buzz box will serve you well as a weekend warrior where 3/16 steel and 20 or 30 seconds of burn time over a few minutes will be all you do. Flux core MIG is super easy to learn. Shield gas wil always produce a better weld. 

TIG is the most versatile in my opinion. Most all TIG power supplies will run a stick too; but, as far as I’m concerned, stick welding is best left to structural and field repairs anymore. Quality buzz boxes are available for next to nothing now. 

I was fortunate when I left my last job to buy a fully outfitted Miller Dynasty 350 at the corporate discount price. Wireless pedal, water cooled torch. Everything.  Insanely overkill for anything I’ll do at home, but it’s what we used at work so I’m used to running it. I used to do maintenance and repair on stainless and Hastalloy tanks for a huge bio pharmaceutical company.  You want a headache, sit for an E-stamp...

[Wimayo]

7 hours ago, fastev said:

Quality buzz boxes are available for next to nothing now. 

Can you suggest how to determine the good quality units out of the many names available?

[fastev]

9 hours ago, Wimayo said:

Can you suggest how to determine the good quality units out of the many names available?

My preference is Miller, but as stated above Lincoln and Hobart make good machines as does Esab. All of them offer starter kits that will come with everything you need.  I can’t believe I’m saying this, but the Vulcan line from Harbor Freight seems to be getting pretty decent reviews. Time will tell how they’ll hold up, but for garage use a few times a year they’d probably be fine.

One thing to look at that will tell you a lot about the guts of the machine is duty cycle. It’s a percentage that refers to how long you can weld in a 10 minute window.  For example, my Dynasty can run 225 amps at 60% on 220v single phase power. That’s huge power, for 6 minutes out of 10. By comparison, HF’s Vulcan can do 175a at 30% on the same input, or 3 minutes in 10. So, for heavy work the Miller will run circles around the HF and build it a cart to sit on while the HF is cooling off.  This better be the case though, the Miller is 10x the price of the HF.  

The current rating is another number to pay attention to.  All the machines that are inverter power supplies are way more efficient than the old transformer machines.  And smaller.  Only problem is that they don’t have the same balls.  Especially when you run on 120v power.  The power and duty cycle will drop significantly on the cheap machines.  They’ll all burn 1/8” to 1/4” steel without breaking a sweat.  Heavier steel, burning through coatings, aluminum will all require more powerful machines.  

If you look at a TIG welder spend the money on something with high frequency start, and pulse if you can afford it.  These are like cheating.  Normally, you’d use what is known as scratch start— you scratch your tungsten electrode on your work to strike an arc.  Works fine but contaminates your tip.  After a few of these starts you start getting inclusions in your beads and basically just gets harder to get a nice weld.  (This is where duty cycle comes in-  lower cycle the more you have to start and stop)  With high frequency start you get a boost of current when you strike your arc, enough that the arc jumps the small gap between electrode and the work.  Keeps your tip clean and prevents opening your gap too much when you pull your torch away from the work in a scratch start.  

Have you ever seen a weld, particularly on aluminum, that looks like dimes stacked one on top of another?  You can use pulsing as a crutch to get this effect which is typically a hallmark of a good weld.  Pulsing is exactly that— like a heartbeat.  You can adjust the pulse rate to match your travel and get a really nice weld.  With a little practice you’ll learn how fast you like to travel and how to control the heat, and adjusting the pulse rate will get you a pretty perfect bead without burning through your material.

Now, as I said, for most of us that doesn’t matter. It simply tells me that the Miller is made from better, more robust components.  The torch and stinger will be better quality, and probably longer.  More power particularly on 120v is a good sign, but only if duty cycles are comparable.  Be realistic about what you want to weld and buy a machine that can do more than you are planning.  DC machines are always less expensive than AC/DC machines, but nowhere near as capable.  TIG is much more versatile than MIG but harder to learn.  Accessories are good, but you don't need a spool gun, water cooled torch, wireless control.  The second two are really nice to have but totally unnecessary.  A spool gun is silly unless you are running hundreds of feet of weld a day.

For a hobby machine bought new the Miller Millermatic 125 would be my choice for MIG and the Miller Diversion 180 for TIG.  The warranty and factory support from Miller are great.  There’s an online dealer called cyberweld that you can compare specs from different mfgs. 

Sorry for the long post, hopefully it helps...