Pondering bench design

[SawDustB]

So as I mentioned in another thread or two, I'm looking to build a proper workbench. Right now, my work surfaces consist of a work mate, my table saw/router table combo, sawhorses, and a metal frame bench that's used for storage more than anything. I thought I'd run my current thoughts by the group to get some feedback. I'm happy if you tell me what aspects are a bad idea, although I'm still new to this so knowing why would also help.

Practically speaking, my space for the bench is around 5 feet long, or I won't have room to move in the garage. My current plan is to make it about 2 feet deep.

The basic design will be a split top Roubo for a couple of reasons. First, I like the leg vise and that style of bench. I need concentrated weight due to the short length. I also want the better access for storage and ability to put my planer and compressor underneath for ballast. Split top seems like a good idea...?

For wood, I'm thinking maple for the top and construction lumber (so spruce) for the base. If I can get a good price on the maple, I'll use it for the whole thing. I have a guy with a backyard stash to try next week. If I have to go with my hardwood dealer, it'll be glued up mostly from 4/4 due to cost, since 8/4 is over 50% more per board foot.

The top will be in the 3 inch range (finished). I'm thinking I'll have a 2 inch gap, seems pretty standard. The right side will have a 12 inch overhang, and the left will either have a minimal overhang or be flush. It depends on what's best for the leg vise.

For the legs, I'm thinking about 3x5 inches, but yet to be determined. Should the leg for the leg vise be made from hardwood?

For a front vise, I'm debating either a DIY leg vise (buying the screw and making a guide) or a metal quick release vise. Is the leg vise worth the effort? Obviously I'd love bench crafted hardware, but it would run close to $1000 for both leg and tail vise, so not in the budget.

I'm thinking about either the veritas inset vise for the tail vise, or a DIY wagon vise. Do any of you ever use it to clamp boards vertically? That's the down side to using the veritas vise, although it's definitely easier.

Does a crochet make sense on a bench this small? I get the sense that it might just get in the way with the leg vise.

Oh, and currently thinking round dog holes, since the bench isn't that big so I want them for hold fasts too.

That more or less sums it up. I'm going to draw a sketch up model once I decide a bit more. What do you think? Thanks!

[..Kev]

Just an observation..

"it'll be glued up mostly from 4/4 due to cost, since 8/4 is over 50% more per board foot"

That's still less expensive than 2 4/4 boards.

Good luck with your build, I look forward to seeing it!

 

[Eric.]

6 minutes ago, TIODS said:

Just an observation..

"it'll be glued up mostly from 4/4 due to cost, since 8/4 is over 50% more per board foot"

That's still less expensive than 2 4/4 boards.

 

 

You too Kev?  A board foot is a board foot.  If this bench required 80 board feet to build, it's gonna cost him 50% more to build it out of 8/4 than 4/4.  It will also take 50% longer to build it with 4/4. 

The only thing that jumps out at me immediately is you say you want mass because it's a short bench, but then you make it a 3" top instead of the usual 4" and say you'll build the base with construction lumber...that stuff is light as a feather.

[..Kev]

7 minutes ago, Eric. said:

You too Kev?  A board foot is a board foot.  If this bench required 80 board feet to build, it's gonna cost him 50% more to build it out of 8/4 than 4/4.  It will also take 50% longer to build it with 4/4. 

The only thing that jumps out at me immediately is you say you want mass because it's a short bench, but then you make it a 3" top instead of the usual 4" and say you'll build the base with construction lumber...that stuff is light as a feather.

Duh..  Cheers Eric..  Was watching football...

[SawDustB]

Thanks, Eric, I was wondering for a second there if I was missing something. Good point about the top, I was thinking about it in terms of how thick do I really need, but I can see the extra thickness would help weight. Construction lumber for the base is not my first choice, so I'll have to use a lot of it... If I can get something else reasonably, I'll use it.

[SawDustB]

15 hours ago, TIODS said:

Just an observation..

"it'll be glued up mostly from 4/4 due to cost, since 8/4 is over 50% more per board foot"

That's still less expensive than 2 4/4 boards.

Good luck with your build, I look forward to seeing it!

 

I read the part about 8/4 and then missed the rest of your post. That's what I get for reading the forum with a screaming baby in my arms. Thanks for the encouragement. I'm hoping to start soon, but it'll probably be February by the time I make space for it and get the wood. I figure I'll kick around my ideas now, before I go and buy anything.

For anyone who's curious, I'm planning to build the leg vise according to the instructions here:

Jords Wood Shop - Build a Roubo Workbench Part 9 -The leg vise / Vise chop

He used a vise screw that you can pick up for less than $50 from Lee Valley. I'm thinking of a similar approach for a wagon vise, if I end up opting for that over the veritas inset vise.

[SawDustB]

I'm thinking that for the leg vise, I'd like to use one of the options not requiring the pin at the bottom. It seems like there are 3 options:

1- the criss cross style, either from bench crafted or home made

2 - using a steel rod and linear bearing, but I can't see getting that to work (was shown on the wood whisperer site)

3 - my preferred option, using a chain or steel cable to keep it parallel

There's an interesting product that keeps the vise parallel using a chain and a couple of pulleys.

There's a good review of it here:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/AYSLegViseChainAdjuster.html

It's a neat concept, and seems like it would be much easier to install than the cross style. It also has less getting in the way of clamping surfaces, and let's you have a smaller chop. Does anyone have experience with it? I'm also thinking I could do something similar but substituting wire rope for the chain...

[..Kev]

The criss cross is super easy to install and works extremely well.  I've done 2 of them.

Never played with the chain design.

[Immortan D]

On January 14, 2016 at 9:30 PM, SawDustB said:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/AYSLegViseChainAdjuster.html

It's a neat concept, and seems like it would be much easier to install than the cross style. It also has less getting in the way of clamping surfaces, and let's you have a smaller chop. Does anyone have experience with it? I'm also thinking I could do something similar but substituting wire rope for the chain...

The author of that blog entry is @derekcohen.

[SawDustB]

11 hours ago, Immortan D said:

The author of that blog entry is @derekcohen.

Thanks, I saw that. His site has been great for picking up some ideas for the bench.

I've been working a bit on a Sketchup model, so I may post some pictures later today.

[woodbutcher74]

Jay Bates has just posted a video on You Tube about building a bench, He built the whole thing from southern yellow pine. Looks pretty hefty to me. I know it don't fit the bill for some of the dedicated guys but looks like it ought do the job. Just an idea.

[SawDustB]

1 hour ago, woodbutcher74 said:

Jay Bates has just posted a video on You Tube about building a bench, He built the whole thing from southern yellow pine. Looks pretty hefty to me. I know it don't fit the bill for some of the dedicated guys but looks like it ought do the job. Just an idea.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've watched his video (and probably about 20 others on building benches). Unfortunately, southern yellow pine is not available where I am, so it's not an option. Even Douglas Fir is not commonly available here. As far as less expensive options, there's spruce and pine. I used to have a sawmill that would sell hemlock and nicer pine, but they stopped selling to the public and now make construction lumber only.

There's a couple of guys locally that have advertised having air dried hardwood that I may try. If not, the fallback plan is buying from my hardwood dealer. Their prices aren't bad, but it seems like there's a big premium for 8/4 on everything except ash, which is only about 25% more for 8/4 (as opposed to 50% more for everything else). I'm just not necessarily in love with building the bench out of ash, since my impression was that it could be splintery.

On the subject of wood, the options I may have available from the backyard guys are maple, beech, and oak. What would you go with? I'm leaning towards maple just because it seems like a safe bet, but beech seems like it might work well too. One of the guys had 4x6 hardwood timbers - what would you think of using these for legs and/or top, and skipping some of the lamination? Obviously this depends on how dry the wood is, so I'm going to have to get a moisture meter to take with me.

[woodbutcher74]

Sorry, I didn't notice you were in The Great White North. SYP is probably hard to come by up there.

[ponderingturtle]

4 hours ago, SawDustB said:

Thanks for the suggestion. I've watched his video (and probably about 20 others on building benches). Unfortunately, southern yellow pine is not available where I am, so it's not an option. Even Douglas Fir is not commonly available here. As far as less expensive options, there's spruce and pine. I used to have a sawmill that would sell hemlock and nicer pine, but they stopped selling to the public and now make construction lumber only.

 

He was using construction lumber though.  What is that in your area?

[SawDustB]

20 minutes ago, ponderingturtle said:

4 hours ago, SawDustB said:

Thanks for the suggestion. I've watched his video (and probably about 20 others on building benches). Unfortunately, southern yellow pine is not available where I am, so it's not an option. Even Douglas Fir is not commonly available here. As far as less expensive options, there's spruce and pine. I used to have a sawmill that would sell hemlock and nicer pine, but they stopped selling to the public and now make construction lumber only.

 

 

He was using construction lumber though.  What is that in your area?

 

Around here, that's spruce or pine.

I definitely haven't ruled out using something like that for the base, but I will go hardwood if I can. I'm excited at the idea of having a decent bench, but I doubt I'd end up remaking it later if I made it out of construction lumber. White pine just seems ways too soft to me. Spruce might work all right, but it doesn't have quite the same appeal.

[Al Capwn]

Paul Sellers used spruce for his workbench. If you want something more durable (read: scratches and dents less), I would go with Maple or Ash. Ash is more open-grained, Maple is close grained. Ash isn't nearly as splintery as say, Hickory. I could imagine Hickory would be a nightmare - but there are folks who have built workbenches out of nearly everything. I used SYP, @Chet K. used Poplar, @Eric used hard maple, many others have used soft maple, and I have seen Ash and Beech as well.

My advice would be to just do it. If you are worried about cost and mistakes, make it out of construction lumber. Cost of wood for the bench I am building ran $60 - and I messed up and bought more than I needed, so...$40-$50, really. Granted, you are in Canada so yours might be a little bit more, but not that much.

So if you are new or lack confidence (like me) then go that route. The experience will teach you valuable lessons if you ever want to make another version out of more expensive materials.

In terms of vice, I have a quick-release vice. Paul Sellers used one, and that is what I came across first, so that is why I bought it. Mike Siemsen's bench has no vice at all; using a crochet, holdfasts and planing stops. Chris Schwarz tends to favor the leg vice. Namely the ability to hold long material vertically to work on the ends of boards. In retrospect, I think I would have preferred a leg vice, but "it is what it is" and will work with what I have.

You can use the leg/face vice to clamp work vertically, and dog holes (at least the ones closest to the front edge of the bench) are designed mainly for an end vice. A downside to the inset vice is that you will have to remove it when flattening the workbench top. May or may not be a deal breaker, but just another bit of maintenance.

[wtnhighlander]

A workbench made of spruce or commin white pine will be soft, for sure, but absolutely servicable. Its all in your attitude about the bench being a utility item, or a piece of furniture. Well made hardwood benches can be beautiful and last several lifetimes. But a well made softwood bench can still look good, and perform all the necessary functions. It may not retain its beauty for all that long, and you may want to replace it someday. Personally, I prefer to use a bench that I can beat up without worry.

[SawDustB]

I just saw a pretty good deal on a large pile of birch in my area... What would you think of that for a bench? Looks like it's around $2 a board foot, but is rough air dried 4/4 from someone's shed. The guy has a few hundred board feet, so should be plenty there.

[Brendon_t]

Any idea what type of birch?  Yellow has a 1260 janka but I think white or paper birch is closer to 850.

After just finishing out of ash, at roughly 1300, I really wouldn't want anything softer than that.  

And personally,  I would not be Building from 4/4 if it could be avoided. That just sounds masochistic.

Edit: another consideration,  I have heard yet not experienced it myself so consider this Internet regurgitation but it is said that birch is prone to a lot of movement issues with humidity swings. 

[AceHoleInOne]

I have made a few projects with flame birch (yellow birch). It's a very hard and dense wood. Perfect for benches or really any project. Make sure your tools are sharp. 

 

-Ace-

[Brendon_t]

4 minutes ago, AceHoleInOne said:

I have made a few projects with flame birch (yellow birch). It's a very hard and dense wood. Perfect for benches or really any project. Make sure your tools are sharp. 

 

-Ace-

I'm surprised to Hear that,  I bought a 30 bf bell forrest project pack and found it to work very soft. 

[Eric.]

Yellow birch is only slightly less hard than hard maple.  Sweet birch is actually harder than hard maple.  I wouldn't hesitate to use either species for a workbench.  The other birch species tend to be on the softer side and I wouldn't recommend any species that dips below about 1,000 Janka.  That's where mine is (red maple - 950) and I find it to be a little soft for my liking.

Doesn't matter, the whole conversation is moot anyway because it's all 4/4 material.  Building a bench entirely out of 4/4 - while not impossible, technically - is insanity.

[Brendon_t]

10 minutes ago, Eric. said:

Yellow birch is only slightly less hard than hard maple.  Sweet birch is actually harder than hard maple.  I wouldn't hesitate to use either species for a workbench.  The other birch species tend to be on the softer side and I wouldn't recommend any species that dips below about 1,000 Janka.  That's where mine is (red maple - 950) and I find it to be a little soft for my liking.

Doesn't matter, the whole conversation is moot anyway because it's all 4/4 material.  Building a bench entirely out of 4/4 - while not impossible, technically - is insanity.

 

[AceHoleInOne]

1 hour ago, Brendon_t said:

I'm surprised to Hear that,  I bought a 30 bf bell forrest project pack and found it to work very soft. 

 

My Flame Birch Stash

I get my flame birch from Bob Kloes. I also work al lot of hard maple. The problem with flame birch is the difficult grain. It's tough to shape the wood using hand tools and lots of tear-out. The grain is always changing directions. 

 

-Ace-  

[Brendon_t]

The above link is dead.

I've heard you speak of Bob before.  Maybe I just had a softer run of wood. I just went out and was able to score the last remaining board with my thumb nail.  Definately not hard like hard maple