Big Ginkgo Blocks

[Homer Simpson]

I'm chopping up pieces of a GINKGO tree and doing some experiments with it. I don't have any background in wood or furniture making. This is just a fun hobby project for me. I'm trying to make a couple of small coffee tables, each cut out of a single big chunk of wood.

 

Does any one know anything about preparing this type of wood to make it stable? The tree was cut down about a week ago and was alive. .. It doesn't look like Ginkgo is commonly used for furniture but it is frequently used to make cutting boards. It is soft and well suited for carving I think.

 

I think I've mostly cut my first table, prior to treating the wood in any way. But I hope to salvage a couple more big pieces of this tree and make a few of these, so I could try different things.

 

I've heard of kiln drying wood but I don't know how that goes or if pieces this big can even be dried out without cracking. .. I was thinking of just coating this with polyurythane immeadiately and then leaving some spots on the underside uncoated to release moisture. .. I thought I might cut some big holes underneath and leave those untreated. Also thought I might drive a few of these long 10" spikes I have into the underside in a diagonal criss-cross way, for added support, (in addition to the 8" ones straight into the legs in the last photo).

 

I still need to finish cutting the legs and do some more sanding, but I do plan on keeping this table rough like it is now.

 

Does this look like a reasonable project for an amateur???? If I am able to make a few more of these should I go about it differently?

 

 

 

 

 

[wdwerker]

Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen ! Get a big garbage bag, put your roughed out table and as much of the sawdust in around it as possible. Twist the top but not tied off tight . Weigh the whole thing and note it. Weigh again weekly and take it out when the weight stabilizes for a few weeks. It's probably going to shrink and crack. Green wood in large thick chunks can take a long time to dry and stabilize.

[Coop]

I thought you were going to tell him to put it out by the curb on garbage day?

[wtnhighlander]

Interesting project, for sue, but Steve is right. You need to be prepared to deal with lots of movement as the wood dries. Leaving it thick as you have done MAY keep it from splitting apart, but it is likely to crack and/or warp. Also, don't try to apply a finish at this point, as it will very likely fail as the wood dries. Slow drying in a bag, as Steve suggested, is a method commonly used by wood turners to dry rough-turned bowl blanks.

[sjk]

...and be patient - it will take a looooooong time to dry.

[Homer Simpson]

Thanks for the reply wdwerker. So I suppose the weight will be going DOWN over time? .. Are we talking weeks, months, a year or more? Would it help at all to hollow out the mass from underneath?

Would driving more spikes in be pointless? .. I really didn't want any visible hardware but maybe if this is otherwise hopeless I could put some threaded tie rods through and tightened down from either end.

Would an oil finish be more stablizing or less stablizing than polyurythane?

[sjk]

I haven't done tree-to-project myself, but I often read about a rule of thumb being 6 months to a year per inch of thickness for an air-dried slab. It depends on a lot of factors, like the climate, the moisture content of the wood to begin with, the amount of exposed end grain, etc...

The sawdust and bag is to slow the drying down so you lessen the chance of cracking.

[drzaius]

I would think it would be many years before a chunk that size becomes stable.

[wdwerker]

Don't even think of putting any finish on it until it's dry. Nails and bolts won't help and they might make thinks worse. Months at a minimum, years is quite possible unless some sort of kiln drying is employed ( and even that needs to wait at least a few months to attempt )

[Homer Simpson]

Okay I know this isn't a proper method but I'm just asking: If i COMPLETELY encase the entire thing in a thick layer of polyurythane or resin, could I just prevent the wood from ever drying out?

.. I have already installed the 8" spikes straight into each leg, like in the picture and there really isn't anyway to remove them at this point without damaging the wood. This being the case (maybe already compromising the drying process) maybe this will be my crazy doomed experiment block and I can be more deliberate with the two or three more blocks I hope to get.

.. I'm a little surprised no one has specifically commented on the type of wood I am using, Ginkgo. I'm pretty sure this wood will behave differently than harder woods. I'm not sure if that's to my advantage in anyway or not. But I think the type of wood here is pretty uncommon for furniture making.

[wdwerker]

If you are going that route look into soaking it in PEG. It's a waxy stuff you dissolve in warm water then soak the wood. Turners use it to stabilize large pieces of wood for the lathe.

sealing wet wood in polyurethane would make an unholy mess, it wouldn't stick or the wood would mildew & rot under the finish if it did stick. Most likely it would keep the finish from drying properly.

Ginkgo is the only monocot tree in the world, it's a plant living dinosaur from the Cretaceous period. I have a fossil leaf and a tree in the front yard. The wood is more fibrous than normal wood. But any wet green wood needs to dry and season before you can make something from it if you expect it to last or look good. If the table is going to live outdoors it won't matter as much because it will probably rot in a few years. 

Been there, done that, got the tee shirt !

[..Kev]

Another thing to consider is that wood moves.  Regardless of species, it's going to move when it dries and it's going to move with humidity changes.

Treating it as Steve mentioned, it only slows down the drying process and gives you a better chance of a salvageable piece.

Look on line at what turners do with bowls.  They tend to turn them when they're green (wet) and then deal with the consequences and finish them once they're dry.

[-MattK-]

I can't see the grain orientation on that...  Where's the pith?  How is the grain running?

[Homer Simpson]

For the grain direction I think you can figure from the first photo. The original piece of wood is a cross-section of the tree trunk. The side facing up in the first photo is the top of the table. There is a dark spot in the wood that may be seen in both photos.

.. I am reading about PEG now and it is very interesting and a little bit encouraging. It sounds like it would be a big and expensive process and still time consuming to soak this piece though. .. But I am also reading about a method of applying the chemical (undiluted or less diluted I think) directly and wrapping in plastic, with several extended applications. .. For a PEG treatment it looks like hollowing the mass would be advantageous.

Is my wood certainly still "green" one week after felling? How long is that likely to remain the case? Should I consider taking actions to prevent drying before I'm ready for a PEG treatment?

.. I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio and it is very humid this time of year here. The block I am working on is currently inside the house but there is no air conditioning.

[Eric.]

Sorry Homer, but you can slather that gingko in kryptonite and it's not gonna stop it from cracking.  This is not how you go about building something from wood.  You cut down a tree, mill it into slabs, let it set for weeks to months, then put it in a kiln for weeks to months, then you start thinking about what you can build.  You can't coat green wood in finish and expect it to remain in a stable state.  Doesn't work that way.

[Homer Simpson]

If I understand what I am reading, PEG is not a finish.

Not all wood constructions are comprised of slabs and I do not consider myself the inventor of this concept.

I am only attempting an experiment and I don't mean to offend anyone. But the entire concept here is to make something geometric from a single large chunk of wood. The intended result is something crude. I had believed there were methods for preserving this item and I had imagined there might be an acceptable amount of cracking and deformation that could be tolerated in this particular piece.

I'm not sure I'm in the right forum or community, but I have gotten some questions answered and some direction for further research. I appreciate folks sharing their knowledge. Thank you.

[wtnhighlander]

Homer, it sounds like you understood going in that some cracking and warping was likely to occur. There are certainly many examples of crude furniture and artwork carved from green wood such as this. We are simply warning you that the results will be unpredictable, so you won't be surprised. Thousands of years experience indicates that drying lumber takes time. Attempting to prevent the lumber from drying is futile. Best to understand the process and deal with it.

[-MattK-]

8 hours ago, Homer Simpson said:

For the grain direction I think you can figure from the first photo. The original piece of wood is a cross-section of the tree trunk. The side facing up in the first photo is the top of the table. There is a dark spot in the wood that may be seen in both photos.

 

Ok, so the center of the log is in the middle?  That's the pith.  That part of the log is the least stable and where you'll get significant cracking.  With the shape you've created, you have a lot of exposed endgrain which will help in accelerating the drying, but it's still going to dry unevenly - more potential for cracking.

Any wood that hasn't been air dried (6-12 months per inch of thickness) or dried in a kiln is "green" wood.  I turn a lot of green wood on the lathe and I can tell you that it moves a lot as it dries out - especially the pith and knots where branches were growing out.

 

7 hours ago, Homer Simpson said:

I'm not sure I'm in the right forum or community, but I have gotten some questions answered and some direction for further research. I appreciate folks sharing their knowledge. Thank you.

You probably are in the right forum / community, you're just not getting the answer you wanted.  I scrolled back through the list of people that answered you and their combined knowledge and experience is staggering (excluding myself from that list!). 

I imagine it feels like you have a dream for a piece of furniture and all these unimaginative people on the internet are crapping on it.  (I know because I've been there!)  But in actuality, their experience is telling them where you should expect to have problems and they're trying to save you from the pain they've gone through building up that knowledge.

From my experience, a better way to ask this question is to say "here's what I want to build, here are the materials I have easily available, how might I achieve it?"  Put in a drawing (with some rough dimensions) and photos of your materials.

And I hope you don't take this message as condescending, there's empathy in what I wrote, not contempt.

 

 

[Tpt life]

To answer a hinted question. Guys and gals that use logs start with much bigger samples. Even if you slab that chunk, you lose length as drying checks the ends. If you have ever been in log structures, you see massive cracks that don't affect the structure much. A massive crack in that little piece might leave it in two pieces. Places that make timber structures are often pulling logs from mill ponds after 80 years of sitting on the bottom. They are grabbing barn beams from barns built 150 years ago. Then they cut massive amounts of wood away to get to portions that are least affected. Your chunk might be useful, but the smaller you cut it before it dries, the smaller the useful end product you usually harvest. 

I don't want to be overly negative though. Having played a bit with wet logs, I will suggest waiting a year. Seal the end grain with a log sealer, not a finish. Finishes will shed from wet wood. Most cracks will develop in the first year. It may be that a saw cut down the pith will leave you with a block you can glue back together. Just know that most of us would not get our hopes up. 

[Homer Simpson]

13 hours ago, -MattK- said:

I imagine it feels like you have a dream for a piece of furniture and all these unimaginative people on the internet are crapping on it.  (I know because I've been there!)  But in actuality, their experience is telling them where you should expect to have problems and they're trying to save you from the pain they've gone through building up that knowledge.

From my experience, a better way to ask this question is to say "here's what I want to build, here are the materials I have easily available, how might I achieve it?"  Put in a drawing (with some rough dimensions) and photos of your materials.

It's all good. I expect more experienced people to judge me a little and I know that my project is in violation of the art of woodworking in some capacity. My inquiry does not merit the attention of the entire community. 

Soon after I first had this idea, (several years ago) I learned that it really wasn't a very practical one. I learned that a workable piece of wood this size would be nearly impossible to procure from a reliable source, and certainly beyond the budget of a hobbyist.

.. Well I never got the idea out of my head. And now there has been a bad wind storm and I have access to some big chunks of wood. The wood is not really ready for working but it is also fresh enough that it hasn't yet cracked significantly. If there is a moment to experiment with this impractical idea, i expected that this was it!

Anyway I have done what I've done and I would like to conclude this initial attempt.  If the block that I have been working is already too mistaken to properly finish, then I will simply finish cutting it to shape and set it somewhere where it will be useful and nice to look at until it falls apart. .. If it is possibly salvageable in some capacity then I may make a more protracted and deliberate attempt with this piece. This is the current state of the Ginkgo block described:

 

 

 

Grain details:

 

 

 

 

 

........

 

 

This was the original concept, as it developed after I learned that I couldn't just buy a huge chunk of wood:

 

 

 

 

 

I thought this would be the desirable grain orientation, (for structural stability). I thought that the dramatically rounded corners and top edges would be less likely to crack. I thought that hollowing out the center all the way through would help relieve tension.

 

My original idea did not entail a "distressed" look, but I definitely always considered that the process would dictate the outcome and that I would have to accomodate some unintentional results. .. With the Ginkgo block in progress I really like seeing all the chainsaw marks and irregularities.

 

I had no particular wood species in mind and the Ginkgo is just what I happened to find. I love the pale color but there are no pieces oriented the way I had desired.

 

 

 

 

.. The PEG is still seeming to me like a worthy material to experiment with on wet wood. But I think it might be too expensive and time consuming to invest into the block I already have going. It is not supposed to come in contact with metal and I already have long thick nails embedded deep in the table legs.

[RichardA]

You believed there were ways for preserving this item...............There are, but you seem to want it yesterday, not the way it works in real life!   You also seem to feel that this might be the wrong forum for you!  In that you might be correct, we here give good advise, following along real actions. If you don't get the answer that you want, search other forums till some idiot gives you the result you want.  And when it doesn't work out the way you want it to..... Try knitting!

[Homer Simpson]

5 minutes ago, RichardA said:

You believed there were ways for preserving this item...............There are, but you seem to want it yesterday, not the way it works in real life!   You also seem to feel that this might be the wrong forum for you!  In that you might be correct, we here give good advise, following along real actions. If you don't get the answer that you want, search other forums till some idiot gives you the result you want.  And when it doesn't work out the way you want it to..... Try knitting!

Very insightful. Glad you took the time.

[RichardA]

19 minutes ago, Homer Simpson said:

Very insightful. Glad you took the time.

It was my pleasure!

[Coop]

Would the old style metal banding material cinched around it and replaced every 3 weeks as it dries, work? Personally, unless you have a lathe, all I see here is fire wood. Good luck with your project bud.

[wtnhighlander]

Homer, I detect a strong aroma of 'engineer', or perhaps 'architect' wafting from those high-quality detailed sketches!

I think you have some cool ideas from artistic point of view, I'm just not sure how successfully they will translate into the medium of wet ginko wood. I see no reason to avoid the attempt, just be aware of the failure potential.

If I might ask, what purpose do the nails/spikes serve?