Let's talk about dogs.

[Freddie]

So we all agree on triangle?

[Cochese]

So we all agree on triangle?

 

Trapezoidal or death!

[Llama]

Freddie, we did speak earlier. Although I started this thread, I was hoping it would be about the topic and not about my bench. I'm sure other people will see this in a week, month or even next year.

HHH, yes! I agree. The looks are what I am hung up on. They look so nice! And honestly that may be enough to push me (or someone else) to the square camp.

[Freddie]

Also, based on the title of this thread, I just want to let you guys know that I have three mini dachshunds. Wire hair, long hair and short hair. Annabel, Henry and Emmitt. Emmitt is the short hair and he is my son.

[Cochese]

I'll admit the square dogs look nicer as well, but I suppose it would also depend on what vise you are using it with.

[Llama]

I'll admit the square dogs look nicer as well, but I suppose it would also depend on what vise you are using it with.

I have the BC hardware.

[Cochese]

I have the BC hardware.

 

Now you had to go and make things complicated.

[Llama]

Now you had to go and make things complicated.

Oh no.

[Cochese]

Oh no.

 

I'll stick to my opinion that round dogs can do just about everything that square dogs can do, and I think they are easier.

 

HOWEVER...

 

 

With that fine piece of hardware I might be changing my mind. It's exquisite.

[Llama]

I agree. It just has the look Cochese. And the BC hardware is top notch. No denying that.

I think HHH hit this one on the head. Either way I'd be happy. But the square ones have the look.

Funny thing is Eric will think he won

[Cochese]

I agree. It just has the look Cochese. And the BC hardware is top notch. No denying that.

I think HHH hit this one on the head. Either way I'd be happy. But the square ones have the look.

Funny thing is Eric will think he won

 

Round it is then. 

[Freddie]

No Mel, in the end you win. Enjoy the bench after its all over!

[..Kev]

Eric is busy with his milkshake meal

[mds2]

Any one make square dogs that pop up out of a round dog?

[Tom Crawford]

Four pages in just a few hours - WOW.  Mel, are you sorry you asked?? 

 

I finished my bench build about 8 months before Marc announced the Rubo build and have round holes.  Seems to me you could do both, square for the BC vice and round for the holdfast and other fixtures that use them - Lee Valley has quite a few.    

 

Then you could start a new thread - where to place the round ones - that should be equally fun as this one.  

[jmaichel]

My vote is for both! I would use square dogs for the holes that are inline with the tail vise, just because I think the square dogs look better. I would then put a few well placed round dog holes on your bench for holdfasts and other accessories.

[Llama]

Not sorry I asked at all I knew it would get hairy I ask things that I'm not sure about. And I'm glad I did!

Even though I don't always follow the general consensus, I will take a good look at the square doge today as I mock up my top. I said before that they look better to me, and almost everyone agrees on that. The majority also believe that it doesn't matter because they both work. Perhaps the square dogs work better in a few situations, but there are more than one way to skin a cat!

I sincerely want to thank everyone that offered their opinion. Thank you!

[Eric.]

Everyone has touched on it already, but I'll say it again just for the hell of it...truly it matters not...they both hold work.

 

I do agree with Chet that square dogs can hold taller pieces...I've had several occasions where this was handy.  The round dogs are limited to that 3/4" (or whatever it is) where the face is flat...square dogs are flat all the way down so you can raise them up a couple inches and hold taller work.  You won't be planing down the fitted dovetails on a drawer this way because it doesn't have enough holding power, but I've sanded or fiddled with odd parts like this, and more often, just wanted a way to secure a top-heavy part so that it didn't fall off my bench while I worked on it.  Of course there are many other work-holding methods that get around this, too.  A holdfast on the inside of the drawer side, for example.  But pinching work between two dogs, especially with the BC tail vise, is so fast and easy...

 

Boiled down:  Your bench, your dogs, your smile when you walk out and greet her every morning.  If you like the way she looks with crossed eyes and a shaved head, then rock on.  For me, a traditional bench calls for traditional dogs.  It looks incongruent to me putting round dogs in traditional bench.  My taste, my opinion.  Matters not.

 

I haven't read the Schwarz book where he lays out the benefits of round over square...I'd like to hear some specifics...I can't think of a single one.

[Tom King]

LIke Richard Pryor said in the movie Silver Streak when they were deciding which car to steal.

[Llama]

I haven't read the Schwarz book where he lays out the benefits of round over square...I'd like to hear some specifics...I can't think of a single one.

 

Here is a link to the blog. 

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/workbenches/schwarz-workbenches/i-have-a-dog-in-this-fight

 

Nothing ground breaking there. To offer perspective, He is really known for his thick slabbed Roubo. Adding a front piece to that for square dogs would be a crime.

[rodger.]

When I built my bench last year I decided to go with round dogs. I chose round for a variety of reasons, many already mentioned:

Easy to install after the bench is built if you chose

Adding a new hole is easy if you need one

They hold a large variety of accessories like holdfasts and even lamps

Dogs are readily available from manufacturers like lee valley

Wooden dowel Dogs are very easy to make/replace if avoiding metal is desired

[Eric.]

Here is a link to the blog. 

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/workbenches/schwarz-workbenches/i-have-a-dog-in-this-fight

 

Nothing ground breaking there. To offer perspective, He is really known for his thick slabbed Roubo. Adding a front piece to that for square dogs would be a crime.

 

I don't see any strong arguments there.

 

1. "Round dogs are easier to retrofit."  - Moot if you plan for square dogs while building your bench.

 

2. "Round dog holes play nicer with holdfasts."  - Every bench needs 3/4" holes for holdfasts, but they don't have to be at the front of the bench in the dog hole strip.  If you find yourself needing a holdfast at the front of the bench, there's always clamps.

 

3. "Round dog holes have more accessories."  - Again, you have the round holes in your bench for the holdfasts, so you can still use all the snazzy accessories Lie-Nielsen and Veritas have convinced you you need.  I've never found myself needing one of those snazzy accessories placed in one of my dog strip holes.

 

4. "You can quickly make your own round dogs."  - This is the weakest of all the weak arguments.  When you go to make your square dogs...make 50 of them.  Making 50 would probably take about 50% more time than making ten or a dozen.  And 50 dogs will last you for YEARS...I dare say DECADES.  Once you have your jig made and your stock milled, it's assembly line time...you can batch out a bunch very quickly.

 

I think the Schwarz is great, but I don't think his heart was in this one.  He should have just stayed neutral.

[Trip]

==> round over square...I'd like to hear some specifics...I can't think of a single one.

 

Let me lay-out the argument for round:

1. Round and square hold wood the same, so there is no actual benefit of one over the other

2. Round is easier to bore without making a mistake

3. Round can be retrofitted into an existing bench

4. Veritas makes numerous 3/4" fixtures that improve bench performance for unusual-stock-holding-needs, e.x. carving, round-stock, etc.

5. Hold-fasts can be used in more locations on the bench

6. Sometimes it is beneficial to have some rotation capability in a dog to hold curved or unusual stock

7. if you align the hold-fast holes with dog strip, it's east to make plane stops that just slide into the 3/4 dog/holdfast holes

 

Argument for square:

1. If you have a low-Janka-top, then round dog holes will elongate over time...

2. You can hold taller stock (without a Veritas product)

3. 99% of time, you're holding rectangular stock, so a non-twisting dog is faster setup

4. Square dogs can apply more pressure (I sometimes use my dog-strip/wagon vice as a glue-up clamp)

5. Square dogs hold more firmly due to the larger surface area, unless you buy/make a fancy Veritas-type round dog

 

I'm sure there's more on both sides...

[Eric.]

 

6. Sometimes it is beneficial to have some rotation capability in a dog to hold curved or unusual stock

7. if you align the hold-fast holes with dog strip, it's east to make plane stops that just slide into the 3/4 dog/holdfast holes

 

 

I'll concede these...good points.  The rest I'm not sold on.

[Llama]

HHH, I think you hit it on the head last night. It may really come down to how it looks, and personal preference.

 

I think the square dogs will look better on my bench. If I had a big slab bench, I'd go round for sure.

 

Still torn on this one... I have to go outside and do some thinking. Either way, I'm sure I'll be happy. Doesn't seem like there is a clear winner or loser on this debate.