CStanford Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Yeah, I could see that. However I wonder how effectively hold fasts would work. Seems that they enjoy the friction on the sides and end of the hole. Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk You shouldn't put a holdfast in dog holes, or it should be a once-in-a-blue-moon thing. Drill separate holes for the holdfasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CStanford Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 CStanford, thanks for that idea. While I agree with the guys that I would pass on this as a design feature, this seems a good way to approach repair of a hole that is beginning to elongate. Other than for changing, slightly, the size of the holes you have to drill anyway plus an extra fifteen minutes spent cutting fifteen bucks worth of pipe, there's nothing to it. It really doesn't even rise to a 'design feature.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochese Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 You shouldn't put a holdfast in dog holes, or it should be a once-in-a-blue-moon thing. Drill separate holes for the holdfasts. No unitaskers on this bench. Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 ==> You shouldn't put a holdfast in dog holes, or it should be a once-in-a-blue-moon thing. Drill separate holes for the holdfasts. Why not? It's one of the reasons ChrisS gives in support of 'Round is Better' argument... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochese Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 My guess would be the hold fasts elongate the holes over time and let the dogs (of war) slip. I don't see it as a big concern. Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CStanford Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 ==> You shouldn't put a holdfast in dog holes, or it should be a once-in-a-blue-moon thing. Drill separate holes for the holdfasts. Why not? It's one of the reasons ChrisS gives in support of 'Round is Better' argument... At first I thought you were joking but I see you're serious. In the end it won't matter. You'll end up with dedicated holdfast holes anyway after beating them in and out of the dogholes. Or, if you need dogs that lean backwards at 30* it could be a plan. I've worked in a few places, had a decent bench or two. I've never seen anybody hammer a holdfast into a dog hole. If the workpiece can't be dogged, and it has to be held along the front edge (near the dogs) rather than an overhanging end, other side of the bench, etc. then just use a C-clamp rather than abuse the dog holes. The alternative is to build *proper* rectangular dog holes and not even be tempted..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 ==>You'll end up with dedicated holdfast holes anyway after beating them in and out of the dogholes. My previous bench had a high-Janka top (Hard Maple), higher-Janka dog strip (Padauk) and round dog holes with chamfered edges... The entire thing was very similar to ChrisS's French Bench... For a decade, used the dog holes for holdfasts on a periodic basis -- but not as often as the holdfast holes, but then again, over 10 years, I'm sure each dog hole saw it's share of holdfast use... The dog holes never elongated, but I didn't pound the snot out of the holdfasts either... Making the bench from robust stock sure didn't hurt My current Roubo has a Hard Maple top and Pennsylvania Black Cherry base/accents -- it uses square dog holes -- Cherry is not as hard as Padauk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CStanford Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 ==>You'll end up with dedicated holdfast holes anyway after beating them in and out of the dogholes. My previous bench had a high-Janka top (Hard Maple), higher-Janka dog strip (Padauk) and round dog holes with chamfered edges... The entire thing was very similar to ChrisS's French Bench... For a decade, used the dog holes for holdfasts on a periodic basis -- but not as often as the holdfast holes, but then again, over 10 years, I'm sure each dog hole saw it's share of holdfast use... The dog holes never elongated, but I didn't pound the snot out of the holdfasts either... Making the bench from robust stock sure didn't hurt My current Roubo has a Hard Maple top and Pennsylvania Black Cherry base/accents -- it uses square dog holes -- Cherry is not as hard as Padauk The only holdfast I ever did like was an old Record unit that came with a collar that was recessed into the bench. The rest I've used were sketchy holders and of dubious origin. They were not boutique holdfasts made by a talented blacksmith one at a time. I think Popular Woodworking vetted the whole thing a while back, didn't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Ah the Record holdfast, the benches at North Devon College (now Petroc) had one holdfast collar each side of the bench during my time there, I don't recall ever using them much if at all. I don't think it was because they didn't work it was just I didn't find myself wanting them. Although not high fashion the quick release that was fitted was far more of an asset, I would say and essential for a comercial setting and they are on all of our benches at work. I didn't fit one to mine for reasons of experimenting and fun but I do miss it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochese Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 I'll be buried with my Gramercys. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekcohen Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Dogholes are for dogs, whether square (such as my own) or round, and holes for holefasts will likely be round (since most are made to fit a 3/4" hole) and positioned on the bench where you will need them. You can plan the former when you are building your bench. You discover the latter when you are using your bench. Dogholes need to lean inward slightly (about 2 - 3 degrees) so as to hold the workpiece down. A vertical doghole will cause slipping. I think Charles' point is valid, that what he is saying is at the extra length of a holdfast will add leverage and cause the doghole to straighten up or tilt away. Then it is useless as a doghole. And anyway, why would you need to use the row of holes at the front of the bench for holdfasts - just drill them elsewhere. So why square dogs? Because they are kinder to wooden faces and do not slip. Yes they take more planning and effort beforehand. Think of them as the equivalent of a mortice and tenon joint vs a Domino. Regards from Perth Derek 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwalter5110 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I have seen some benches with dog holes used in conjunction with the leg vise. But they always seem to be round. Is there a single benefit to having dog holes in conjunction with your leg vise, verse tail vise? But if you did want dog holes along the side of your bench that go with your leg vise, could you "easily" make them square? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Pat, do you mean a front vise? I don't think dog holes would work well with a leg vise. Unless you mean a dog hole on the other leg, or in the sliding deadman. I can't imagine sticking a couple of dog holes on the top of my leg vise, like I used to have on my front vise of my old bench. The way a leg vise works I don't think they'd do you much good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Hey Mel, If you can get your hands on the Fine Woodworking "Tools and Shops 2002" book. They define a shaker style workbench in there. BTW - They define it as having a leg vise, a sliding deadman, SQUARE DOG HOLES, and ... wait for it... drawers. Check out page 56 if you can find the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwalter5110 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Chet your right. I meant just the front vise. Usually on lower end benches. Never on the roubos or shaker benches. Usually just on DIY plywood top benches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Hey Mel, If you can get your hands on the Fine Woodworking "Tools and Shops 2002" book. They define a shaker style workbench in there. BTW - They define it as having a leg vise, a sliding deadman, SQUARE DOG HOLES, and ... wait for it... drawers. Check out page 56 if you can find the issue. However they define it... Doesn't matter to me. Take a look at the Taunton Shaker Style book, they have a "Shaker" workbench in there that is nothing more than a dresser with a top and a cheap quick release vise. Very disappointing, especially because I bought the book based on the recommendation of someone on here (can't remember who), and it doesn't have a leg vise or even a tail vise. I don't even remember if it had dog holes. It was pathetic. So, I have absolutely no faith in what FWW says is or is not a "Shaker" workbench. I have always said my workbench is based on the Benchcrafted design. There are a few things I do not like, and others I do like. I keep going back and forth on the drawer thing. I never said I wouldn't make them, rather I said I was thinking about it and not sure. And besides, the drawer issue has been beaten to death on here by now. More to the point, I raised the issue of dogs because I wanted the opinion of the people on here. My mind still isn't made up on which one I'll use. There is no solid reason for one over the other. The best reason to use the square dogs is they look better, and I agree. And now apparently not having the square ones will somehow change the name of the bench. And the best reason for using the round ones is that it is easier. Most people here agree there is little advantage for one over the other in terms of real world use. Unless you believe that chicks like them, which would only be true if it were found in a magazine. Good thing we are only on a forum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ..Kev Posted January 6, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 However they define it... Doesn't matter to me. Take a look at the Taunton Shaker Style book, they have a "Shaker" workbench in there that is nothing more than a dresser with a top and a cheap quick release vise. Very disappointing, especially because I bought the book based on the recommendation of someone on here (can't remember who), and it doesn't have a leg vise or even a tail vise. I don't even remember if it had dog holes. It was pathetic. So, I have absolutely no faith in what FWW says is or is not a "Shaker" workbench. I have always said my workbench is based on the Benchcrafted design. There are a few things I do not like, and others I do like. I keep going back and forth on the drawer thing. I never said I wouldn't make them, rather I said I was thinking about it and not sure. And besides, the drawer issue has been beaten to death on here by now. More to the point, I raised the issue of dogs because I wanted the opinion of the people on here. My mind still isn't made up on which one I'll use. There is no solid reason for one over the other. The best reason to use the square dogs is they look better, and I agree. And now apparently not having the square ones will somehow change the name of the bench. And the best reason for using the round ones is that it is easier. Most people here agree there is little advantage for one over the other in terms of real world use. Unless you believe that chicks like them, which would only be true if it were found in a magazine. Good thing we are only on a forum. Love the fact that you're sticking to your guns Mel and building the bench you want to have. Even tho we don't agree on a couple features, I applaud the fact that doesn't sway your decision. Opinions are like... well... you know the saying 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I agree with you Tiods! It's nice when someone brings a topic to the forum, concerning a design element. It's fun to throw ideas around, and a little harmless hazing is never a bad thing, it's all in good fun. But sometimes these things also bring in a lot of crap, and there's only so much one can take. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwood Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 After 6 pages of answers I think if you would have just built it and done which ever, no one would have ever said a word about the type of hole. But now every time you post a pic someone is going to bring up the holes. Every time you post a work in progress pic, someone is going to say if you had this type of hole using this type of hold down or support it would work better. I will admit it is all in good fun at this point and when I do my bench, ( if ever) I will do square. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 After 6 pages of answers I think if you would have just built it and done which ever, no one would have ever said a word about the type of hole. But now every time you post a pic someone is going to bring up the holes. Every time you post a work in progress pic, someone is going to say if you had this type of hole using this type of hold down or support it would work better. I will admit it is all in good fun at this point and when I do my bench, ( if ever) I will do square. I am looking forward to seeing your bench build, and your square dogs. Mine will be round. I stumbled on another reason that round dogs may be better. I will have more information on that if it turns out to be true. Right now, it is just an idea. So, everyone will have plenty of time to let me know how wrong I am with my bench dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwood Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 You will be waiting a long time for that build, just don't have the room for it yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 So, everyone will have plenty of time to let me know how wrong I am with my bench dogs. We've already established this...you won't be wrong...you'll just be laughed at by women. Have you considered doing both? There's plenty of room on a dog strip for square and round holes. That way you won't completely regret your poor decision-making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 We've already established this...you won't be wrong...you'll just be laughed at by women. Have you considered doing both? There's plenty of room on a dog strip for square and round holes. That way you won't completely regret your poor decision-making. I am already laughed at by women, and small children. I'm used to that by now. The design I am going with doesn't allow for square dogs. So, even if I wanted to I couldn't use them. During my messing around in the shop with a couple mock ups, I stumbled on a reason why benches are made the way they are. This may be for a reason... I'll only know with practical use if I'm right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Enlighten us Chief Round Dog...that's your new Native American name. Chief Round Dog. Ha ha. I can only assume that you've decided to go with drawers (I'll PM you my address so you can send me my winnings) and you won't be able to open the drawers with the square dogs in the way. Yeah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Enlighten us Chief Round Dog...that's your new Native American name. Chief Round Dog. Ha ha. I can only assume that you've decided to go with drawers (I'll PM you my address so you can send me my winnings) and you won't be able to open the drawers with the square dogs in the way. Yeah? That's not it... I may add the drawers. I'm not set on that one. I think it would be a good place to hold some stuff. Mel "Chief Round Dog" Morris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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