Let's talk about dogs.


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Does it?  I always felt like it was a mouthful.  And of course I've endured a lifetime of douche jokes. LOL

Love the fact that you're sticking to your guns Mel and building the bench you want to have.  Even tho we don't agree on a couple features, I applaud the fact that doesn't sway your decision.   Opin

I'll be buried with my Gramercys.

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==> HHH, I think you hit it on the head last night. 

Yea, my post from last night is how I look at the problem... I posted this am because someone was interested in a list of the pro-round arguments...

 

I had round on my last Roubo and square on this one... As previously stated, I've found no functional difference... I went square, just beacuse I had round on my last bench and liked the look...

 

A more interesting question for the peanut gallery: say you had to build the Roubo all-over-again... For those who went round, would you go round again? And for those who went square, would you go square again? Marc told me there were over 50 Roubo builds, so that should be enough for a decent poll... You could post those two questions as well as the two cross-over cases...

 

Just an idea...

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 As previously stated, I've found no functional difference... I went square, just beacuse I had round on my last bench and liked the look...

 

A more interesting question for the peanut gallery: say you had to build the Roubo all-over-again... For those who went round, would you go round again? And for those who went square, would you go square again? Marc told me there were over 50 Roubo builds, so that should be enough for a decent poll... You could post those two questions as well as the two cross-over cases...

 

Just an idea...

 

I think this is the answer. They is little real difference in the two. Comes down to looks, and preference. Oh, and Chet says the chicks like the square ones. I'll do a poll. It will be interesting!

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I'll add a data-point... small sample, but directional...

 

Over the summer, I hire a couple of High Schoolers to assist in the shop -- it's a win-win -- almost... Cheap labor... until they bore a new hole in your drill-press table :)

 

Point is, they asked if I built the Roubo... They zeroed-in on the BenchCrafted vices and the square dog holes -- wanted to know how it was done... That never happened with my previous Roubo (Veritas vice and round holes)...

 

So square dog holes must have a certain 'cool' factor... :)

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"By the same token you can "get away" with an egg beater style drill, but after you use a cordless drill you never want to again."

 

 

 

I might be becoming a galoot, but I think for 90% of furniture stuff Id take a egg beater and/or brace and bit over a cordless drill. the no2 from miller falls was an amazing piece of kit. 

 
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Alright - I came to this one a little late and had to read through 5 pages to get to this point.

 

Pretty much everyone has mentioned the round is easier than square and you can get  more accessories point.  What I haven't seen is the mention that round dogs will sometimes more easily mar the end of the work piece than a square dog will.  If you're planning ahead with over-sized stock and to remove the end, the point is moot.  But if you have to take a finished piece back to the bench to improve the fit with your plane, it might be something to consider.

 

And if the aesthetics of it are the primary consideration, I think the whole discussion is worthless.

 

One more point:  The Schwarz (note correct spelling - no "t"!!!) is more likely to express his opinion colored by some traditional factor rather than a truly subjective one. (Just my opinion.)

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I might be becoming a galoot, but I think for 90% of furniture stuff Id take a egg beater and/or brace and bit over a cordless drill. the no2 from miller falls was an amazing piece of kit. 

 

 

 

Auger bit and brace for all my holes. I think I still have the marks on my forehead.

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==> round dogs will sometimes more easily mar the end of the work piece

that's why many folks put a square face on the upper-end of round dogs...

 

 

==> One more point:  The Schwarz (note correct spelling - no "t"!!!) is more likely to express his opinion colored by some traditional factor rather than a truly subjective one. (Just my opinion.)

He has stated numerous times, round is the way to go --- for the reasons I listed a page or two back...

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Alright - I came to this one a little late and had to read through 5 pages to get to this point.

Pretty much everyone has mentioned the round is easier than square and you can get more accessories point. What I haven't seen is the mention that round dogs will sometimes more easily mar the end of the work piece than a square dog will. If you're planning ahead with over-sized stock and to remove the end, the point is moot. But if you have to take a finished piece back to the bench to improve the fit with your plane, it might be something to consider.

And if the aesthetics of it are the primary consideration, I think the whole discussion is worthless.

One more point: The Schwarz (note correct spelling - no "t"!!!) is more likely to express his opinion colored by some traditional factor rather than a truly subjective one. (Just my opinion.)

Fair points.

I'd say that aesthetics are always important. Not the determining factor, but a consideration. Just like anything else we do.

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I think all of you are just plain nuts. I use scraps of plywood and drywall screws to hold things on my bench! :P

 

Actually, I do kind of use this method. My planing stops are random pieces of square-ish scraps, 2 bolts, and some threaded insert nuts into plywood (like 3 layers since I just put a new layer of 3/4" birch over the bench from the previous owner). Otherwise, I have a machine vise and hand clamps. I was just making through mortices (4" x 3/4") in a 8' piece of walnut on my drill press and stabilized the far end by  screwing a scrap of 2x4 to the bench (it had to hang off the end to actually support the piece), then clamped a couple pieces of scrap to it to bring it up to the right level.

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http://youtu.be/FONN-0uoTHI

 

Mel, your bench, your rules. Here is my 2 cents.

 

You are building a reasonably authentic Shaker bench, for that reason and that reason alone I would go square. I'm sure round, square or triangle :), would serve you well, but a shaker bench with round dog holes? Get outa here!

 

My bench has some holdfast holes and planing stop, and I think I will soon revert to wtnhighlanders method when something extra is needed, the same method that has served me well for 15 years or more.

 

If you really want to try before you buy, drill a row or round dog holes. Dont like them, chop them square. Not so easy to turn a square hole round. 

 

One further point, I did not fancy a metal planing stop, I don't fanch a plane/chisel dog meet up.

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I want some solid reasons for using square dogs vs. round dogs.

 

Right now, I am leaning heavily towards round ones. 

 

Thanks!

If you build them round then line them with copper pipe.  Turn dogs to fit the ID of the pipe.  Holes will never elongate from pressure.  For belt and suspenders, brush on a little epoxy in the holes to seal the grain (not to glue the pipe in; let the epoxy set and put it on thin with no additives).  Tap the pipe pieces in with a block of wood and light hammer well after the epoxy has fully cured.

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If you build them round then line them with copper pipe.  Turn dogs to fit the ID of the pipe.  Holes will never elongate from pressure.  For belt and suspenders, brush on a little epoxy in the holes to seal the grain (not to glue the pipe in; let the epoxy set and put it on thin with no additives).  Tap the pipe pieces in with a block of wood and light hammer well after the epoxy has fully cured.

 

Geez, and people say square dogs are a PITA. :D

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If you build them round then line them with copper pipe. Turn dogs to fit the ID of the pipe. Holes will never elongate from pressure. For belt and suspenders, brush on a little epoxy in the holes to seal the grain (not to glue the pipe in; let the epoxy set and put it on thin with no additives). Tap the pipe pieces in with a block of wood and light hammer well after the epoxy has fully cured.

Yeah, I'm going to pass on that idea.

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Last month Boatworks told me about using epoxy to harden the wood in pilot holes for hardware. If your bench is made of a softer wood it would be a good idea to epoxy the dog holes, then re drill or shave them to fit the dogs. I don't think I would go so far as to line them with pipe but if you already have some epoxy mixed up for another project brushing the inside of a dog hole is a good use for it before it kicks off.

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CStanford, thanks for that idea. While I agree with the guys that I would pass on this as a design feature, this seems a good way to approach repair of a hole that is beginning to elongate.

Yeah, I could see that. However I wonder how effectively hold fasts would work. Seems that they enjoy the friction on the sides and end of the hole.

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==>^^^

Just pulling you're chain :)

Glad it worked-out for you. Very popular with the boating community...

West's app notes are a great read --- kind of, "1001 things you never thought you could do with epoxy". Always worth a browse...

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