Beechwood Chip Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 I'm hoping to take a bunch of cheap wood I've collected over the years and make a lot of shop furniture. I tend to over think and over design stuff, and for these projects I really want to just knock them out quickly - nothing fancy. So, I've been watching a lot of April Wilkerson and Steve Ramsey videos. I admire how they can put something together quickly and simply. I noticed that they use a lot of simple butt joints with pocket hole screws, so I figured that I'd get a pocket hole jig. But then I thought, "If it's just a right angle butt joint held together with screws, why use a pocket hole rather than just screwing straight through the joint from the other side?" As far as i can see, the only advantage to a pocket hole is that you can hide it on the side that people won't see. But, people seem to use pocket holes all over the place, even when it is more visible than a straight screw from the other side. Am I missing some other advantage to the pocket hole screw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 hmm... My understanding of pocket hole jigs/screws/method was the ability to hide the hardware, but also creating a tighter joint. Kind of like toe-nailing a board with a nail. By angling the screw, you get more purchase, but maybe not. Hmm... Interesting... Just my thoughts, I haven't used many pocket holes in my work, so just my .02. There are cabinet makers that screw through the sides when they are able to hide the screw with putty and paint. So, maybe it's just to hide the darn things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 I think Mel hit it on the head. The pokcet hole screw allows you to avoid driving a screw into end grain, which doesnt have as good "holding power" as long grain. The jig is relatively inexpensive, and a good tool to have around (even if you only use it for jigs, DIY, other non-furniture items). I use mine for face frames, jigs, shop projects, etc. I even framed out a stud wall in my basement using it, so I could access the screws to remove a stud if needed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 With a pocket hole you are screwing into face grain rather than end grain. If you were to drill holes in the sides of the stiles and screw into the cross pieces you would effectively screw into end grain. This is a far weaker joint. The pocket hole void would be in the cross member and would normally be on the inside of a cabinet so would not be seen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted November 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 Thanks! The face grain vs end grain makes sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lang Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 The strength advantage of screwing into edge or face grain vs. into end grain is marginal at best. If had a bunch of stuff to make for the shop (which I do) I would drive screws directly rather than mess with the pocket hole jig. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 Agree with Bob.. I usually don't use pocket screws for shop furniture. If I want to hide the screw heads, I'll plug them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 The strength advantage of screwing into edge or face grain vs. into end grain is marginal at best. If had a bunch of stuff to make for the shop (which I do) I would drive screws directly rather than mess with the pocket hole jig. Yeah, to the experienced. To the rookie with standard screw technique screwing into face grain is more forgiving with a lack of perfect joinery faces. I have pulled many hundred end grain screws of inappropriate length or thread depth. First was newspaper and yellow glue, now epoxy fortification followed by a re-drill. This is also species dependent. Wide open pores of red oak for example make certain boards much less stable from the end grain. Not disagreeing but feel there are some caveats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 Mel knows what I'd do . Although I wouldn't use putty . The chief advantage I can see from pocket jigs is that they are a jig so make things repeatable within the parameters of the design. The other big advantage would be hiding the fixings to save the putty or wooden plugs. Add in the caveat I've never owned a pocket hole jig so take what I'm saying with a pinch of sodium chloride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardA Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Mel knows what I'd do . Although I wouldn't use putty . The chief advantage I can see from pocket jigs is that they are a jig so make things repeatable within the parameters of the design. The other big advantage would be hiding the fixings to save the putty or wooden plugs. Add in the caveat I've never owned a pocket hole jig so take what I'm saying with a pinch of sodium chloride. Graham.... When you're at dinner, do you ask someone to pass the sodium chloride? How many people nowadays know what sodium chloride is? In this country, if you take a poll, you'd find less than 10% have a clue. Sodium Chloride is not important to operating a idiot phone or tablet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Get real Richard, if I'm having a meal I ask for the NaCI . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weithman5 Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 I built my new vanity using pocket screws. Because I wanted to have flexibility to take apart and I also am new to this stuff it was easy. It is an open vanity with birch shelves the stretchers and cross supports though I just screwed together. When I get home tomorrow I will see if I can get some pictures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 I built my new vanity using pocket screws. Because I wanted to have flexibility to take apart and I also am new to this stuff it was easy. It is an open vanity with birch shelves the stretchers and cross supports though I just screwed together. When I get home tomorrow I will see if I can get some pictures You don't glue and screw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weithman5 Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 This is the vanity before I died the bb shelves. The thing is made of maple from Home Depot. All surfaced 1x3. I glued three together to form each leg . The stretchers and rails were 1x3 ripped to hold the plywood shelf with the cut piece glued and screwed to the wide piece. I used a few old pieces of oak for the middle rails so there would be a shelf on each side. Pocket screws alone hold all the supports to the legs. Currently the shelves are finished. I have the sink and faucet mounted on a temporary cabinet top till we decide what to make the counter out of . I will add picture when I get home tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mzdadoc Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 I have the K5 jig and I say pocket screws all the way. Don't need glue either. Built an upper and lower cabinet and was amazed how sturdy and strong. In the event you don't like the shop furniture or needs change take it apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Pocket holes are certainly stronger but I would not force fit them into a project or any other joint for that matter. If your doing cabinet work much depends on the cabinets use and how it gets installed. If its a wall or base cabinet fixed to a wall or a free standing cabinet used to hold heavy objects on top makes a difference those are two different builds. First you need to realize the hardest part of a cabinets life is getting from the shop to the end user and attached to the wall, from there is smooth sailing. Almost all failures happen before the cabinet gets used for its intended purpose. No typical kitchen and bath cabinet joinery methods are good for free standing boxes that are subject to racking. You usually need to add a little extra like thicker backs, dado's and nailers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted December 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Thanks, PB! I'm going to be making rolling bases for my bench-top tools, so racking will definitely be a problem. I think I'll stick with what I know: 3/4" plywood, dados, glue, and screws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Thanks, PB! I'm going to be making rolling bases for my bench-top tools, so racking will definitely be a problem. I think I'll stick with what I know: 3/4" plywood, dados, glue, and screws. Most likely depending on the design nailers are a cheap easy option in addition to dado's. Dados in plywood are good for fixed boxes but not so much by themselves for racking. Nailers can just be strips of ply scraps. Face to face glue and staple under your deck and fixed shelves. Pocket hole the nailers to the deck or fixed shelves. This combined with your dado's will hold huge amounts of weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted December 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Most likely depending on the design nailers are a cheap easy option in addition to dado's. Dados in plywood are good for fixed boxes but not so much by themselves for racking. Nailers can just be strips of ply scraps. Face to face glue and staple under your deck and fixed shelves. Pocket hole the nailers to the deck or fixed shelves. This combined with your dado's will hold huge amounts of weight. I was going to depend on rabbeted back panels to prevent racking. Maybe an apron or face frame in front if I thought it needed more bracing. I like the idea of nailers instead of dados as a quick and easy joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 I sort of assumed one advantage of pocket screws is people typically use higher quality screws with pocket holes. The heads come off cheap drywall screws are pretty easily. Cabinet screws are higher quality, I think. Drywall screws are to hard so they snap. Zip-r's are made for cabinet assembly but not joinery. Pocket holes are really a FF joint but has been turned into a much over used joint by the advent of Kreg jigs. Kreg in itself is a not so great pocket hole method they sort of make what should be a quick easy FF joint and turn it into a PITA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weithman5 Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 This is the vanity all dyed. Temporary counter. Note two shelves are off till I cut runs for the drain. Just haven't decided how far out to pull the sink. I used the kreg jig. I would say it is a slight pain in the arse but not too bad when in rhythm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
customwood montrose Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Pocket screws have their place just like any type of woodworking joinery. I have a Domino as well as multiple types of pocket screw jigs (Kreg and 2 massive Castle TSM-21 shop pocket bore machines) and usually use pocket screws for most stuff and find no problems with strength when the correct screw thread type and length are chosen. If you are building shop cabinets, go with pocket screws for speed and ease of assembly. Fine furniture with exposed pocket screws, totally bad! Shop cabinets with full mortise and tenons, why spend the time? Dustin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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