Big tools and dust collection

[Dhankx]

OK , first sorry for the numerous questions.  Trying to figure out what I'm going to do next

OK I just got a planer, jointer, table saw setup - all selected with the help of you guys (thank you!)   I am now playing with dust collection.  For now I'm just hooking up my little 4.5 hp shop vac. I've used it on all 3 tools and - yes it fills up fast - but it also works just fine as far as I can tell.  I started looking at maybe putting in a more permanent and convenient solution than shuffling around the connection to the vac based on the tool I'm using.  I see that dust collectors are around 200+ bucks, but I saw they're just 1hp.  How can a machine like that with 1hp handle multiple tools?  Wouldn't a cheaper solution be to just get a small shop vac permanently setup for each tool be a more "powerful" approach (4.5 hp vs 1)  ?  I guess I'm just looking for advice, ideally I want something that can handle all 4 power tools (adding the mitre in there) without switching stuff around.

Side-bar question:  The planer BLOWS harder than the vacuum sucks, as it popped the connection when I didn't have it screwed down (found the jointer and table saw didn't have this problem - i just connected the 4" hose to the vac hose with no clamp).  Am I causing a potential problem here, do planers need a different type of approach? I did notice the planer leaves the most shavings behind out of all 3.

[RichardA]

It sounds like the planer you have is the Dewalt 735. And yes it'll blow the hose from a shop vac off in a split second.  Do you have a Harbor Freight you can get to?  They have a 2 hp DC for around $180 to $200 That will handle all 3 or 4 tools without a problem.  Here's a pic of a 735  blowing sawdust, and my old DC, the big green DC.

[Dhankx]

10 minutes ago, RichardA said:

It sounds like the planer you have is the Dewalt 735. And yes it'll blow the hose from a shop vac off in a split second.  Do you have a Harbor Freight you can get to?  They have a 2 hp DC for around $180 to $200 That will handle all 3 or 4 tools without a problem.  Here's a pic of a 735  blowing sawdust, and my old DC, the big green DC.

Yes and yes, so 70 gal 2hp for 200 bucks ? That the one?

[Chet]

There is a bunch of science to dust collectors which I don't even pretend to know.  But there are two simple things to remember, first off the dust collectors have a minimum of 4 inch connection verses you small shop vac hose so it pulls more volume and second you are still only using one tool at a time, you just close the blast gates to the tools you are not using.  

Like Richard said above, a lot of people here start with the Harbor Freight units.

[Dhankx]

4 minutes ago, Chet said:

There is a bunch of science to dust collectors which I don't even pretend to know.  But there are two simple things to remember, first off the dust collectors have a minimum of 4 inch connection verses you small shop vac hose so it pulls more volume and second you are still only using one tool at a time, you just close the blast gates to the tools you are not using.  

Like Richard said above, a lot of people here start with the Harbor Freight units.

I feel like I'm learning a new term every day. Now it's blast gate!  So I get this:

https://www.harborfreight.com/70-gal-2-hp-industrial-dust-collector-61790.html

Or this:

https://www.harborfreight.com/2-hp-industrial-5-micron-dust-collector-97869.html

Plus this:

https://smile.amazon.com/POWERTEC-70201-4-Inch-Three-Machine-Collection/dp/B01N21P1WE/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1503942381&sr=8-9&keywords=blast+gate

Plus 4" tubing and I'm good to go?

 

[RichardA]

Go with the 5 micron DC and that blast gate selection., and a hose.  But get the hose from Rockler, they have a set of quick connects that will save you anger. Or you can set up a perminent routing with either  Metal tubing, or 4" pvc  or just flex hose.  Being new to this, you'll learn a lot more terms.  But that would be a decent set up to start with.   And never use a 90* turn always 2 45* turns.

[Tom King]

A shop vac is enough for a router table.  I can't think of anything else that it moves enough air for.  In my opinion, a DC less than 3hp does not move enough air for much of anything.  I bought a 2hp, have it dedicated to a 24" bandsaw, and it's not nearly enough.

For a planer, you know you are moving enough air when any chip that gets thrown out the front, hovers for a split second, and gets sucked back in, and away.

[rodger.]

I use a 1.5HP delta, and it's great. Make sure you use the largest diameter hose your inlet will allow (5" in my case). Ruducing to 4" really restricts air flow, so if you must reduce, do it as close to the tool as possible.

Ideally, run 6" from the collector directly to the tool with no reduction. However, this is not possible for many real world shops.

[bleedinblue]

Anything less than 3 HP is a bandaid solution.  They help, but they're not enough.  I have a cobbled together harbor freight unit and it's better than the shop vac, but that's about as far as I can go with it.  It collects most of the jointer and planer and tablesaw mess.  I'll upgrade one day. 

[rodger.]

I don't want to get into a huge DC debate, but saying that only 3HP+ is effective is not completely true. It really depends on your set up. If you want a central location and run duct work, then yes 3HP+ is needed. If you run a very short section of flex hose, and move the collector to the tool, a smaller unit will do. There are limitations, however. The hose has to be a correct diameter, and the hose run short (usually under 5 feet). The impeller also needs to be 11" or bigger. From Bill Pentz:

"For those who move a dust collector from machine to machine they can get buy with a good quality 1.5 hp dust collector that turns at least an 11" impeller."

(http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/dc_basics.cfm#HowMuch)

 

[bleedinblue]

Yeah, I know my statement is painted with a broad stroke and such generalized statements are rarely 100% accurate.  

[Ronn W]

Remember that if you put a blast gate at each piece of equipment and only run 1 at a time (which most of us do) your DC is only drawing dust from one tool, not multiple tools.  That means that, at any given time you are only using one path for the dust and that is your main run.  You don't have mains and branches.  Then your limiting factor is the distance from your DC to each tool for a 1 3/4HP DC that is, at most, 20 feet. Remember that elbows and flex duct have a longer effective length that stragiht pipe.  My 1 3/4" DC does a good job on everything but the band saw and that is more a function of the band saw geometry. 

[Marmotjr]

7 hours ago, RichardA said:

It sounds like the planer you have is the Dewalt 735

I love how the model of a planer can be determined by it's affect on your attempts of attaching it to your dust collection. 

[Art]

I have a 1 hp mobile DC that I connect with flex hose to my jointer/planer and table saw as needed.  It does a great job on those two machines.  I have no experience with anything larger, but to state that any less than 3 hp isn't sufficient seems incorrect to me.  At some point in the future I'm sure I'll upgrade to the built in solution, but in the meantime, I have no complaints.

[Tom King]

I'm sticking with what I said about anything less than 3hp being a toy.   I've owned more different sizes of dust control units, starting with smaller ones, than I can remember.   Ask anyone who has a 3 or 5 hp if they think they have too much, and would go back to a smaller one.  A lot of my "shops" are setups in priceless houses.  None of them get dust in them, including running a sliding miter box in there.

Planeing a number of 15" wide panels pushes the 3hp to the limit.

My general rule of thumb is that the largest motor running at the time needs to be the one on the DC.

The building where I have the big bandsaw set up for resawing has the 2hp DC sitting right beside it, hooked up only to it.  Everything in there has a layer of dust on it.  The house where the 14" is right now, that gets hooked up to the 3hp, when it gets used, has no dust anywhere.

[rodger.]

17 minutes ago, Tom King said:

I'm sticking with what I said about anything less than 3hp being a toy.   I've owned more different sizes of dust control units, starting with smaller ones, than I can remember.   Ask anyone who has a 3 or 5 hp if they think they have too much, and would go back to a smaller one.  A lot of my "shops" are setups in priceless houses.  None of them get dust in them, including running a sliding miter box in there.

Planeing a number of 15" wide panels pushes the 3hp to the limit.

My general rule of thumb is that the largest motor running at the time needs to be the one on the DC.

The building where I have the big bandsaw set up for resawing has the 2hp DC sitting right beside it, hooked up only to it.  Everything in there has a layer of dust on it.  The house where the 14" is right now, that gets hooked up to the 3hp, when it gets used, has no dust anywhere.

Good to hear the voice of experience - thanks Tom.

[gee-dub]

Tom speaks true.  Even in my little one-man shop I still regret getting a 2HP because it would fit easier where I wanted to put it.  I should have modified my approach and gotten the 3HP I had originally targeted.  My longest run is under 30 feet and most are under 15.  It works and is hella-better than my old bag system but, for only a few hundred more (at the time I bought) I could've been happier.

[Eric.]

I'm sure Frank meant that you need at least 3HP if you want an efficient ducted system, and I fully agree.  I have a 2HP system, and like I've said a hundred times, it picks up the mess, but doesn't make the air safe to breathe.  For that I firmly believe you need a 5HP system and modified ports on many of your machines.  And even then I highly doubt you'll be 100% safe without a respirator.

A shop vac and dust collector do essentially the same thing but in very different ways, and they're not interchangeable.  A shop vac works on velocity and it's only suitable for machines with smaller ports like the miter saw, router, sanders, etc.  A DC operates on volume of air moved (CFM) and it's necessary for tools with 4" or larger ports.

By all accounts the HF 2HP DC is a great value, and you can even duct it for convenience if you keep your expectations realistic.

[Ronn W]

1 hour ago, Tom King said:

My general rule of thumb is that the largest motor running at the time needs to be the one on the DC.

Aha!!!  That's 1 3/4 for me just like I said.  Sorry, I'm just being a smart ass.

[Pondhockey]

1 hour ago, Eric. said:

I'm sure Frank meant that you need at least 3HP if you want an efficient ducted system, and I fully agree.  I have a 2HP system, and like I've said a hundred times, it picks up the mess, but doesn't make the air safe to breathe....

I was looking for a clear statement like this.

The pickup truck ("green dust collector") is cute, but it's really a chip collector, and the big reason for a dust collector is the small stuff that eventually makes you sick.  

I've read that some folks use the vacuum system for chip collection and a mask for dust protection.  I have a 1.5 hp vacuum system which I agree is inadequate.  I also wear a mask.  This winter I will also purchase an air filter, and eventually I will learn enough and save enough to improve my dust collection system.  The operations that produce most dust seem to be sanding and table sawing.  I do the sanding outside - wearing a mask.

[gee-dub]

5 hours ago, Pondhockey said:

 . . . and eventually I will learn enough and save enough to improve my dust collection system . . .

I'll just toss out there that "eventually" came for me when I found myself having to take medication twice a day for the rest of my life.  There are no "go-backs" on some of these things.  Put your health high on your list of woodworking gotta-haves.

[Tom King]

There are three real choices for dust collection.  There are multiple ways to accomplish each.

The three choices are:  You can get some of it, most of it, or all of it.   I choose all of it.

[Dhankx]

A lot of insight here folks, as always I appreciate the input! 

So let me try to get something clear so it's clear.  I am new to woodworking and I do it very part time.  1 project every 2-3 months of small furniture.  I have a list a mile long but I'm not in a hurry and I do have other hobbies (like fishing!) along with a 3 acre lot to maintain.  I will never use more than 1 tool at the same time, I just don't have that many arms.  So the going consensus is a 2HP 70 gallong 5 micron dust collector using blast gates based on the tool I'm using would just be a band aid.  A 3 HP would be oh so much better and keep me alive longer?  I'm just trying to reconcile what appears to be a controversial subject   

3 HP like one of these?I am willing to spend a few hundred more for something that is more long term and/or safe.  I do wonder about the true difference I'd see in 2 vs 3 hp though and these are a lot more space...

http://www.grizzly.com/products/3-HP-Dust-Collector-with-Aluminum-Impeller-Polar-Bear-Series/G1030Z2P?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqMfOu9P81QIVV1YNCh1mKgcdEAQYASABEgJok_D_BwE

https://smile.amazon.com/Oasis-Machinery-DC5000-Heavy-Collector/dp/B005LO9WMW/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1504016949&sr=8-13&keywords=3+HP+dust+collector

 

[Eric.]

Again, depends on your expectations.  If you're planning to construct a ducted system and your goal is clean air, I truly believe you need to buy a 5HP unit.  Even then, good luck capturing 100% of the fines that come off of your table saw or (especially) your bandsaw.  Just ain't gonna happen.  3HP is better than 2HP, but that's like saying a 6 cylinder Mustang is better than a Focus.  True...but you don't really get the full effect without the 5.0 liter V8.

I kind of liken it to the table saw purchase debate...I see a lot of value in a 3HP Grizzly, and a lot of value in a SSPCS...but not much value in the models between the two.

I'd either go the bargain route and use the $200 HF DC, or plunk down the cash for a legit 5HP system from Clearvue or Oneida.

Do not expect 100% efficiency using that 3HP unit on a fully ducted system.

[Tom King]

My 3hp is my portable one.  It sits on casters, and the reason I bought it was because it was the largest one that will roll through a normal door.  It has a 10', smooth on the inside flexible hose.  It's not hard to move where its needed, but most of the time we're able to set up so just the end of the flex hose can be moved to attach to a duct that only goes to a couple of tools.  When we run a planer, it sits right beside the planer, and is hooked to nothing else.

For a fully ducted, in place system, I wouldn't want less than a 5 hp unit.  If I ever retire, and build one big shop, I'll have a 10 or 15 hp unit, or bigger if I get a wide belt sander.

My 3hp is a Woodtek that I think cost $600 plus some.  One trouble I see with a lot of hobbyists, is that they have to have the best or nothing.  Sort of like needing a $200 backsaw because of pride of ownership more than function, but then not cutting to the line.  My 3hp is not a cyclone, but a 4 bagger-mostly because it holds more for its height, and I have helpers that keep it emptied.  I don't wear a respirator, or have an air filter, because we don't really need either.  We also don't have to clean dust before we leave a museum house.