Heat!

[Tom King]

9 hours ago, MattF said:

I am going to use a blast gate for the damper. I dont like the HVAC dampers I have found online. They dont seem to do a good job of sealing. It will be closed when not in the garage, no need to heat it when not in use. this is a cheap option to experiment with. If it doesnt work, I can put it back to the original configuration. My original plan was to have a gas line installed and run a radiant NG heater. Contractor wanted $1k to run less than 10ft of line. Plan was to tap off of the main line that feeds the furnace and water heater. If the HVAC plan oesnt work, I may go back to that.

What type of pipe is the gas line, and how hard is it to get to the place that's 10 feet away?

[Chestnut]

50 minutes ago, Marmotjr said:

Data could very easily be extrapolated from these episodes and applied to this scenario. 

the stoke for wood is around 7:1 the lower the first number the more dense the fuel needs to be. a 500 sq ft garage would require 3,500 gallons of sawdust for possible lean ignition.

[MattF]

2 hours ago, Tom King said:

What type of pipe is the gas line, and how hard is it to get to the place that's 10 feet away?

1” black iron pipe, at least that’s what it looks like. It would be a super easy run T’ing off, 2 90s perpendicular to each other and done. I’m confident in my skills to do the job (read: my work would be to a higher standard than an average contractor). My wife is requiring a liscensed contractor for this job. Don’t blame her really.

[wdwerker]

I did several gas pipe jobs bigger than that back in the early 80's . You just inspect the threads carefully on each pipe & fitting. Use pipe dope liberally ,tighten to the same level of force and check obsessively with soapy water for bubbles.  Careful planning & layout plus the right hangers .... it's doable but with insurance companies looking for any excuse to deny a claim I don't even do any mechanical stuff for clients. 

Licenced and permitted in that part of the country sounds like a safe way to CYA.

[krtwood]

17 hours ago, MattF said:

I know what you mean about heat. My shop, 2 car garage, is only partially insulated and no heat. I plan to remedy that over Christmas break. Will be installing insulation and drywall at the front 8 foot and also sealing and insulating the over head door. The furnace for the house is in the shop, up draft, so my plan is to tap into the duct at an access panel and run a vent. I know nothing about HVAC, so I hope it does not screw up the rest of the house. I will be adding a baffle for the garage vent so I can open when in use, and close when not. 

 

If there are any HVAC people here, let me know if this is a dumb idea.

If it isn't on its own zone it isn't going to do very much.  I tried just putting in a couple vents in my basement shop as the main ducts run through it.  Well the zone calling for heat only wants to go up 1-2 degrees so at best you are going to get 1-2 degrees in the shop as well and it runs longer.  You need something else to bring it up to temperature and then it can help maintain that but don't expect much.  Another resident of the house complained of being able to smell sawdust, even though there was no return and a filter on the vents, so they ended up getting sealed up.

[MattF]

6 hours ago, wdwerker said:

I did several gas pipe jobs bigger than that back in the early 80's . You just inspect the threads carefully on each pipe & fitting. Use pipe dope liberally ,tighten to the same level of force and check obsessively with soapy water for bubbles.  Careful planning & layout plus the right hangers .... it's doable but with insurance companies looking for any excuse to deny a claim I don't even do any mechanical stuff for clients. 

Licenced and permitted in that part of the country sounds like a safe way to CYA.

Insurance is the main reason she wants a contractor to do it.

 

6 hours ago, krtwood said:

If it isn't on its own zone it isn't going to do very much.  I tried just putting in a couple vents in my basement shop as the main ducts run through it.  Well the zone calling for heat only wants to go up 1-2 degrees so at best you are going to get 1-2 degrees in the shop as well and it runs longer.  You need something else to bring it up to temperature and then it can help maintain that but don't expect much.  Another resident of the house complained of being able to smell sawdust, even though there was no return and a filter on the vents, so they ended up getting sealed up.

Thanks for the info. Our HVAC is not set up for zones, wish it was due to varying temps throughout the house. I am going to move forward with the venting to test it out. If it works, great, if not I can replace the access panel in the plenum to restore it to the original configuration. Its worth the gamble considering that the parts are cheap. Should be able to test it out for less than $100. I've got my fingers crossed, but not too confident. 

[Mark J]

Krtwood brings up a good point about an air return bringing sawdust into the house.  I hadn't thought of that.

Good luck with the experiment.

[collinb]

I'm a little north of you, up in Westerville (NE Columbus). My garage is a 2-car with drywall on the sides and an old wood door. I don't know if there is insulation in the outer wall.

It is heated with a little 60K propane torpedo heater from Lowes. When it's really cold I let it run for about 30 minutes. Then it's all toasty warm and I can work comfortably for 2-3 hours  before having to re-heat. When temps are modest as they are today I can heat for 15 minutes and work for a few hours.

[MattF]

3 hours ago, Mark J said:

Krtwood brings up a good point about an air return bringing sawdust into the house.  I hadn't thought of that.

Good luck with the experiment.

Please excuse my HVAC ignorance, bu my air return is in the house. Would I need to add a return in garage? 

 

2 hours ago, collinb said:

I'm a little north of you, up in Westerville (NE Columbus). My garage is a 2-car with drywall on the sides and an old wood door. I don't know if there is insulation in the outer wall.

It is heated with a little 60K propane torpedo heater from Lowes. When it's really cold I let it run for about 30 minutes. Then it's all toasty warm and I can work comfortably for 2-3 hours  before having to re-heat. When temps are modest as they are today I can heat for 15 minutes and work for a few hours.

I thought about a torpedo heater, or other propane type heater, but read that the moisture level in the space jumps up. Do you find this to be an issue?

[Minnesota Steve]

I would really recommend against this plan.

If you take air from the house and blow it outdoors(which is effectively what your garage is), that air is going to have to be replaced.   Modern houses(built in past 40 years) have a big air hose that comes into the house to allow for this... older homes just leak like sieves.   This hose is sized to replace air blown outside from bathroom vents and to help with oxygen replacement from gas burning appliances.   But in this case it'd be a near constant flow of air out of the house, drawing in cold air which has to be warmed up again.   So this is going to really harm the efficiency of your furnace.

Then you run into the various concerns of fumes from the garage entering the inside of the house...   And then there are other concerns about fire barriers between the garage and the home.

And when you get right down to it, it's against building codes because of these reasons...   This code says you need a second furnace.

https://up.codes/viewer/general/irc-2015/chapter/16/duct-systems#M1601.6

 

[collinb]

42 minutes ago, MattF said:

I thought about a torpedo heater, or other propane type heater, but read that the moisture level in the space jumps up. Do you find this to be an issue?

Not really. Because my wood sits in the garage for an extended period the moisture level is really, really low. And because I don't run it for a long time period the moisture doesn't stay around a long time, thus eliminating the potential of re-saturating the wood. (It would take a long time to add a lot of moisture anyway.)

[wdwerker]

Without a return the new vent you plan will slightly pressurize the shop then resist more warm air from flowing in. Maybe you could install a return on the HVAC equipment or cut a hole between the shop and the house then cover it with a high quality air filter to prevent shop dust from being pulled in. You could do a test by cutting a piece of 1/4" to fit the door to the house then cut a hole for the filter.  I would put a return down low so it pulls air off the floor. If it's up high it will be pulling in warm air. That would be good if you were trying to air condition the shop.

For a safer alternative the oil filled radiator looking electric heaters have no elements exposed . I put a small fan a few feet away to circulate air over the heater. A short 12 gauge cord gets the heater out towards the middle of the shop.

[Tom King]

14 hours ago, MattF said:

1” black iron pipe, at least that’s what it looks like. It would be a super easy run T’ing off, 2 90s perpendicular to each other and done. I’m confident in my skills to do the job (read: my work would be to a higher standard than an average contractor). My wife is requiring a liscensed contractor for this job. Don’t blame her really.

Home Depot will cut, and thread black pipe that you buy from them at no charge.   One possible trouble with that job is that you might have to go all the way to one end, and unthread enough pieces so you can tighten a new piece in.  Gas piping runs at much lower pressure than water lines, so installers don't typically tighten it like water lines, so they're not usually very difficult to get apart.  Use as many stock pieces as you can, and then get the last piece cut to a special length.

 You can also buy a pressure gauge presta valve (tire valve) for pressure testing the system with air.   Typically, gas lines are tested to 35 psi, and if inspected, the inpector wants to see the gauge that's been holding pressure since yesterday.  You don't need to really crank down on the pipe wrenches to get a good seal.  The threads are tapered, and I've seen more than a few guys use Channelocks. 

To make sure your main valve actually works, cut the system off, clear lines, put the tester on somewhere, and check the gauge a few hours later.  It should have no pressure.  If you have no pressure with the gas off, you're clear to work on the lines.

I pressure test gas lines to 60, and leave it sitting over a weekend.   Use a high quality thread sealant, instead of the yellow teflon tape, but many use the yellow tape with no problems.  I think the last sealant I used was Gasoila sealant.

If you end up running gas lines, consider running one to a valve for a gas grill outside.  I have even run to a manifold outside so the user could use mutiple types of gas cookers.  The valve was before the mainifold, and unused threaded ends were plugged unless being used.  It's nice not to have to worry about hauling tanks around for cooking outside.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Jones-Stephens-60-lb-Gas-Test-Gauge-Assembly-G64060/202271243?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D26P-Plumbing|&gclid=CjwKCAiAsejRBRB3EiwAZft7sLADzysFtxoiyJQ-AYxqzAKq41yrAjNTq9KAI5fdrp5OWKREXfqXFRoCbeUQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CKyx6pefmdgCFQIIDAod-vIH1A

 

http://www.gasoila.com/products/pipe-thread-sealants.html     The hard set is not as easy to get back apart, years later, as the soft set, but the pressure rating is ridiculously high.  I like the PLS2 also.   Neither is the low priced spread, but I always didn't consider gas piping a place for the low priced spread.

[MattF]

1 hour ago, wdwerker said:

 

For a safer alternative the oil filled radiator looking electric heaters have no elements exposed . I put a small fan a few feet away to circulate air over the heater. A short 12 gauge cord gets the heater out towards the middle of the shop.

After all the discussion, I think I may try this first.

[wdwerker]

Mine are 1500 watt, Delongi brand I think. 3 of them on high keep my 1250 sq ft shop w 16 ft ceilings at 65 when it was 30 outside.  I leave 2 of them on medium power with the thermostat/dial thing( 1- 6 no temps or digital anything) set at 3 for overnight on weekends when we have a big project going.

During a mild winter they are sufficient, if it's really cold I get the natural gas space heater turned on seasonally. We didn't need any heat until December and it's not worth the hassle for just 2 or 3 months.

[AceHoleInOne]

I use a propane heater like that to warm my garage. It's fine for the first hour or two. After that I get sick of listening to it. Sounds like a 747 jet in a headwind. 

 

-Ace-

[Marmotjr]

8 hours ago, collinb said:

I'm a little north of you, up in Westerville (NE Columbus). My garage is a 2-car with drywall on the sides and an old wood door. I don't know if there is insulation in the outer wall.

It is heated with a little 60K propane torpedo heater from Lowes. When it's really cold I let it run for about 30 minutes. Then it's all toasty warm and I can work comfortably for 2-3 hours  before having to re-heat. When temps are modest as they are today I can heat for 15 minutes and work for a few hours.

That's pretty much been my routine. 

And you're south, I'm up by Ashtabula, pretty much in the heart of the snow belt.