Building a small shop this summer

[Chad Hummel]

10 minutes ago, Jim DaddyO said:

Here, electrical work is a separate entity requiring it's own permit.  Even if the rest of the build does not need one, you still need a permit.

I am getting a electrical permit. While I am not a licensed electrician I am pretty knowledgeable on the subject, and as I stated earlier, my neighbor is a licensed electrician, and he will be helping with it. I've done quite a bit of research and will also be going with his recommendations. That is one thing i don't F*#K around with  (well, that and garage door springs).

 

16 minutes ago, C Shaffer said:

Since water and electric and data all often want to be in separate conduits, base your chase on the likelihood of adding any of those items down the road.

The shop is gonna be like twelve feet from the house. It's not gonna have water and it's near the corner of the house where my router lives, so wifi is good. I'm not trying to argue or be difficult, I guess I'm just not getting what you guys are saying. You want me to run a large pvc pipe underground that I run the conduit through instead of just burying the conduit?

[Chestnut]

33 minutes ago, C Shaffer said:

twine

9 minutes ago, Chad Hummel said:

I am getting a electrical permit. While I am not a licensed electrician I am pretty knowledgeable on the subject, and as I stated earlier, my neighbor is a licensed electrician, and he will be helping with it. I've done quite a bit of research and will also be going with his recommendations. That is one thing i don't F*#K around with  (well, that and garage door springs).

 

The shop is gonna be like twelve feet from the house. It's not gonna have water and it's near the corner of the house where my router lives, so wifi is good. I'm not trying to argue or be difficult, I guess I'm just not getting what you guys are saying. You want me to run a large pvc pipe underground that I run the conduit through instead of just burying the conduit?

I'd still if possible consider running Ethernet for a hard line. Wifi is great and all but if i could have a computer with a gigabit Ethernet line vs spotty wifi I'll take the hard line every time. Then again i usually store all my media on a computer and then stream what ever i want over the network so i can have all my things on what ever computer i want in my house. If for nothing else some day you may want a shop security camera?

[Ronn W]

If you use a single concrete block course under the wiid sill plate, make sure that the anchor bolts the hold the aill plate to the block extend down into the concrete slab..

 

 

[Tpt life]

3 hours ago, Chad Hummel said:

 

The shop is gonna be like twelve feet from the house. It's not gonna have water and it's near the corner of the house where my router lives, so wifi is good. I'm not trying to argue or be difficult, I guess I'm just not getting what you guys are saying. You want me to run a large pvc pipe underground that I run the conduit through instead of just burying the conduit?

Not necessarily. I was only providing a context for rationale as a single six is not something I have ever seen. My background is in that site prep and finish kind of work. This is why I closed with “evaluate.” He gave you a recommendation ...if you need it. If you don’t, carry on. 

[Larry Moore]

9 hours ago, Chad Hummel said:

i was going to run 1 1/2" conduit for the buried portion. would this be in addition to that?

I ran the wire loose in a 6" PVC pipe so I had room for a water line and anything else I want to add later

I did have a permit, I asked the electrical inspector about running wire and water in the same chase. His answer was it is not excluded in the electrical code so it was ok to do it.

[drzaius]

23 minutes ago, Larry Moore said:

I ran the wire loose in a 6" PVC pipe so I had room for a water line and anything else I want to add later

I did have a permit, I asked the electrical inspector about running wire and water in the same chase. His answer was it is not excluded in the electrical code so it was ok to do it.

Let's be clear on the difference between wire & cable. Simply put, wire is single conductor stuff that needs to be installed in a conduit or raceway of some sort for mechanical protection. Cable is an assembly of wire, sheath, armor etc that can be installed without conduit. If you have 1 big underground conduit that you want to run water & electric in, then the electric will need to be in cable approved for the location.

[Larry Moore]

Just now, drzaius said:

Let's be clear on the difference between wire & cable. Simply put, wire is single conductor stuff that needs to be installed in a conduit or raceway of some sort for mechanical protection. Cable is an assembly of wire, sheath, armor etc that can be installed without conduit. If you have 1 big underground conduit that you want to run water & electric in, then the electric will need to be in cable approved for the location.

Not according to the electrical inspector here.

[Chestnut]

A lot of this stuff is regional. Look into what your local code requires odds are this is going to be listed by what ever agency provides the permit. In most cities it's the Engineering or planning department. Some may yield to the county or state code.

In Colorado you have to have floating walls because of the clay, in ND houses are built on the same type of soil and don't require floating walls. Cali requires earthquake protection. Water lines in MN require some sort of annode or cathode protection to prevent corrosive soils from degrading the water lines, in ND that's not the case.

Every state except Cali and Oregon don't allow insulation over top of knob and tube wiring.

[drzaius]

Just now, Larry Moore said:

Not according to the electrical inspector here.

Really, they let you put wire in a pipe with whatever else? I guess I should have qualified my statement as being Canadian. There are pretty tight restrictions on what can share a conduit. Even wire of different voltages & even the same voltages, if fed from different transformers, cannot share a conduit (with a few specific exceptions)

[Larry Moore]

5 minutes ago, drzaius said:

Really, they let you put wire in a pipe with whatever else? I guess I should have qualified my statement as being Canadian. There are pretty tight restrictions on what can share a conduit. Even wire of different voltages & even the same voltages, if fed from different transformers, cannot share a conduit (with a few specific exceptions)

I was going to give a smart ass answer like the water is in pex not running loose but I won't. Yes I will. 

I have know idea if you could run wire from other transformers or whatnot I can only tell you what he approved 

[Chad Hummel]

anyway..... let's keep it simple (and civil). just got off the phone with a city planner. maximum wall height without a permit is 10 feet. Roof peak height is of no concern, so yes, I will be making a taller ceiling and an even taller "attic" for storage. yay! I might even switch to a barn style roof to maximize storage.

I'm going to bury the 1 1/2" conduit 18 inches per code with 6-3 awg uf-b direct burial wire. No water. a second line for cat5 is not out of the question but at the moment not planned. 

[Tom King]

I usually use black polyethylene pipe to run such cables in.   It's cheap, and comes in long lengths, so there are no joints to snag a pull.  Put an extra one in the ditch when you dig it, for future use.   Tie a mason's line to a little piece of cloth, and suck it through the pipe, with a vacuum, to pull what you need to with.   Any time you pull a new wire, pull another line with it.

Here, you're not supposed to put electric, and water in the same ditch, but when I have a pipe there with a line in it, I've never had anyone, who needs to run another wire, not use it.

Unless you have very rocky soil, with sharp rocks, I wouldn't bother to put UF in anything but the bottom of the ditch.

Dig your ditch first, and then go buy the wire.  If you don't do it in that order, you will be sure to come up short with the wire.  Get enough to have a few feet to throw away.

When Colonial Williamsburg was first built, the law was that any house had to have a minimum pitch of 10 feet.   Then, "pitch" was the wall height, and had nothing to do with roof pitch.

[Chestnut]

49 minutes ago, Chad Hummel said:

anyway..... let's keep it simple (and civil). just got off the phone with a city planner. maximum wall height without a permit is 10 feet. Roof peak height is of no concern, so yes, I will be making a taller ceiling and an even taller "attic" for storage. yay! I might even switch to a barn style roof to maximize storage.

I'm going to bury the 1 1/2" conduit 18 inches per code with 6-3 awg uf-b direct burial wire. No water. a second line for cat5 is not out of the question but at the moment not planned. 

This is complicated but I'm planning a shed very similar in size to yours. I figured I'd mention it and then link the discussion.

Here is a rendering i didn't include in the journal yet if you want the cliffs notes version.

 

[Chad Hummel]

24 minutes ago, Tom King said:

Dig your ditch first, and then go buy the wire.  If you don't do it in that order, you will be sure to come up short with the wire.  Get enough to have a few feet to throw away.

Honestly it'll be easier and cheaper for me just to get a 125' spool of the uf-b from amazon and run the whole thing with it. I only need about 15 feet of it for underground and then about 90 feet indoors/crawlspace/garage to the breaker box, but I cant find  just a 100' roll of regular 6-3. everything goes 25-50-75-125. 

[Tom King]

If you have dedicated electrical supplier near you, that will sell to anyone off the street, they will sell no. 6 wire by the foot, and usually about half the cost of what it goes for in the box stores, and probably amazon.  The same goes for plumbing, and HVAC suppliers.   I rarely buy any of that from a box store.  In some states, such a store will only sell to someone with a license, and an account though.

[Coop]

3 hours ago, Chad Hummel said:

anyway..... let's keep it simple (and civil). just got off the phone with a city planner. maximum wall height without a permit is 10 feet. Roof peak height is of no concern, so yes, I will be making a taller ceiling and an even taller "attic" for storage. yay! I might even switch to a barn style roof to maximize storage.

I'm going to bury the 1 1/2" conduit 18 inches per code with 6-3 awg uf-b direct burial wire. No water. a second line for cat5 is not out of the question but at the moment not planned. 

Congrats Chad! Keep us posted on the build. Good luck bud. 

[Mark J]

Ditto, let us know how it goes.

I'll throw in another two cents.  You mentioned you were going to run 220V and a 40 amp sub panel.  I'm wondering if that will be enough juice.  I have a 50 amp 220V circuit servicing the heater and a 30 amp 220V for the DC and when I finally get a TS or Jointer I 'll need another 220 circuit.  And all of that may be running at once.

That's probably way more than you'll be putting into your shop, but what machines do you expect to be running and what do they draw.

[drzaius]

With that 6/3 you should be able to put a 60A breaker on it, at least you can in Canadian amps.

[Jim DaddyO]

7 hours ago, drzaius said:

With that 6/3 you should be able to put a 60A breaker on it, at least you can in Canadian amps.

Correct.

I have been looking into getting a 60A subpanel in my small shop and that is what has been recommended for the feed (larger aluminium has also been suggested as it is less expensive, not sure I want to go that route).  My plan is for gas heat as I am in Ontario and who knows what is happening with electric rates from day to day.  I will have a single 220 volt feed with 2 15A outlets hooked to a 30A breaker (I think) as I will only have 1 220V machine on at a time (I don't own any 220 equipment right now).  A couple of 20A 110 outlets and a couple of 15A 110 outlets, the lights and that's it.  If you keep the number of items under 9 the permit is about 1/2 the cost.  You can add more outlets later.  

My largest item on my wish list is a combo jointer/planer which draws 12A (3 hp) and the saw I want has only 7.5A draw.  But that is still in dreamland.

[Tom King]

There are all sorts of horror stories about aluminum wire, but those are from when it was used in regular house wiring.  That's not even sold any more, so you can forget about that.

URD service cable is absolutely fine for the main wire going to a panel, or from a main panel to a sub panel.  It's all that's used around here for service entrance cable, and there are hundreds of multi-million dollar houses, on the lake here, with their service entry cables being alumimum URD.

We have a 400 amp service to our house, and I have subpanels off of subpanels run from that, all with Aluminum URD direct bury cable.   All you have to do at the connections is use a NoOx, DeOx, or some such coating on the end of the wire that goes in the lugs on the panel.

This is also the kind of wire that's much cheaper from a dedicated electrical equipment supplier, than from a box store, but I found this picture:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-By-the-Foot-2-2-2-4-Black-Stranded-AL-Quad-Dyke-URD-Cable-55417399/205001803?cm_mmc=Shopping|VF|G|0|G-VF-PLA|&gclid=Cj0KCQjw4_zVBRDVARIsAFNI9eD7ccqg3DlEsLz_D-ZOvhUx_Bw-8AuiyL_5Nz5-WVIGwNGT0IqP4fMaAp0JEALw_wcB&dclid=COzR1evRltoCFcYLDAodlL0FhA

 

[Chad Hummel]

On 3/30/2018 at 8:57 PM, Mark J said:

You mentioned you were going to run 220V and a 40 amp sub panel.  I'm wondering if that will be enough juice.  I have a 50 amp 220V circuit servicing the heater and a 30 amp 220V for the DC and when I finally get a TS or Jointer I 'll need another 220 circuit. 

I wont be having a heater.I just have a small satellite dish style space heater. The only time I'll really be running more than a couple things at a time will be when I'm running the dust collector.

 

On 3/30/2018 at 10:12 PM, drzaius said:

With that 6/3 you should be able to put a 60A breaker on it, at least you can in Canadian amps.

Sweet.

 

On 3/31/2018 at 6:14 AM, Tom King said:

This is also the kind of wire that's much cheaper from a dedicated electrical equipment supplier, than from a box store, but I found this picture

I've been meaning to go talk to my electrician neighbor. I like this idea. This would save me a buttload of cash. Thanks! 

[Chad Hummel]

13 hours ago, Chad Hummel said:

This would save me a buttload of cash.

eh, maybe not. the connectors/splicers alone look freaking expensive.