New Shop (The New Mossback Workshop)

[Mark J]

I like your neck down glue storage solution.

[Chestnut]

On 2/11/2022 at 1:10 PM, legenddc said:

slapped some dry erase duct tape on the totes

Didn't know this was a thing. You just solved a problem for me. We have started stacking totes in our garage and were trying to figure out a way to label them.

[justaguy]

How's the shop coming?

[BonPacific]

On 2/20/2022 at 9:36 AM, justaguy said:

How's the shop coming?

Slowly but surely. I finally got a quote I could stomach for insulating the ceiling, and I've got them scheduled for the beginning of next month. $5k for 3" polyiso, caulked and foamed in for a good airseal. Still not %100 sure what I'm doing on the walls.

Also got 1 of the new circuits fully wired, and the other two are about 50% done. Thankfully I've been able to use a couple hundred feet of 12-2 I had left over, as their price is through the roof like everything else these days.

[BonPacific]

First, the good news. I got all the wiring roughed in and passed cover inspection. Hit it off nicely with the local electrical inspector, which is always good. He also gave me a few nice tips for any future work I do. The panel is definitely at capacity, but I should be well covered for regular outlets, the table saw, and there's a couple existing circuits I can re-purpose as needed for any more 220v tools down the line.

I did 90% of the work with classic metal staples, before being converted to the infinitely nicer to use nailed plastic clips. You always learn the best lessons at the end of the job.

After that though... Things take a turn.

As I mentioned previously I'd gotten a quote I could stomach for a "cut-and-cobble" insulation job on the ceiling. There's a higher risk of failure with this technique, but the company estimator gave me a good pitch, they had excellent reviews, and I decided to take the risk. I'll have to replace the roofing (currently basic 3-tab shingles) in 5-8 years anyways, so I'd have a chance to add ventilation from the outside if problems cropped up. This was the same situation I ran into with my previous garage (with finished attic) and I've known a few pole building homes that have had to do it as well.

The job had two line items.

1. Full airseal with weatherproof/mold-resistant caulking. Specifically including every joint and penetration in the exterior envelope of the ceiling.
2. 3" of rigid polyiso insulation cut and glued into the purlin bays and fully sealed around the ends and edges with spray foam.

During scheduling they expected the job to only take one day. I didn't believe this for a second (it's 1260 sqft of insulation) but they assured me if it needed more time they'd work the weekend.

Come Friday morning the crew arrived fashionably (about an hour) late. Not a big deal, I work from home. The foreman wouldn't be around till later that day (first warning flag), but the crew got started immediately.

Something i didn't notice until the next day: The long ladder at the shallow angle and the smaller A-frame on the right side are my ladders. They did not ask me before they pulled them out of where I had stored them. The long ladder is definitely not safe in this configuration as it only has one skid-pad on the bottom and they hadn't affixed the top to the girt it is resting on. Thankfully nobody got hurt.

Around noon I walked out to see how they were progressing, and noticed the first (of what would become many) installation problems. Crew member #1 was taping off panels, which I could see from the ground had not had spray-foam added to seal it in the bay. I pointed this out and another crewman promised they'd redo that immediately. They did not redo those panels. You can also see a noticeable difference in the gap between the foam and the sheathing.

Around 1PM the foreman finally arrived, and we talked over a few things. According to him they needed to install the rigid foam with a 1" airgap above it for fire-code reasons, and needed to nail up some retention cleats in-case any of them "fall out". I have not been able to confirm or disprove that this is actually required, but this was definitely concerning to hear, and went directly against what the estimator (who I later found out was the company owner) had described of the system.

While he was explained the required gap, I watched one of the crew gluing (liquid nails) a panel directly to the sheathing. Foreman immediately said they'd replace that piece and told that crew member to stop. Concern growing, I asked about the airseal and was assured by the foreman and the crew that they were caulking everything before putting up foam. I would later determine that was a bald-faced lie by the crewmember. I had to get back to work, but I made a note to check this later.

The foreman left not long after, and I was caught up at work until the crew packed up around 5. They asked if they could leave their tools and materials in the shop overnight and they'd be back tomorrow morning. I said this was fine and after they'd left I went out to do a walkthrough. This is when the horror show really set in.

The first thing I noticed was they'd left a pile of plastic wrap and insulation scraps sitting on-top of my big electric heater, which has several very visible warning labels to not do that. I cleared it off and unplugged the whole thing to be safe.

Then I started poking around at the panels they'd gotten installed.

This photo is facing the eave where a purlin passes through the blocking at the top of the truss. That's an exterior joint, notably lacking either caulking to airseal from the outside (on a bright day you can see light around that 2x6) or spray foam to airseal it from the interior space. This panel was completely "finished", with cleat and tape installed (I pulled it back to check).

It was the same story basically everywhere I looked. Pieces were miss-matched at the joint, missing caulk or foam, or affixed completely randomly. Some were glued to the sheathing, some were floating an inch or more below, with no rhyme nor reason to any of it.

Looking at the tools and materials they'd left behind, I noted they didn't even bring any caulking with them.

Day 2 arrivesd, and I told the crew (when they called me to tell me they'll be an hour late) that I'm going to need to talk to the foreman before any more work happens. I'm 95% sure at this point I'm going to pull the plug on the whole job, but I'm going to at least talk through it first.

Crew arrives, tells me foreman in 10 minutes behind them. I point out the myriad problems with the installation and they all get very quiet. I tell them to hold off on doing any work and wait until the foreman arrives. He does, about half an hour later as I'm standing in the shop noticing more and more problems everywhere I look. This is also when I realize they've been using my ladders without permission. I pulled out the contract, and I'm fairly certain this was the first time he or anyone on the crew had even seen it. I don't know how they bungled communication this badly, but even if the airseal hadn't been part of the job the foam work itself was completely unacceptable.

Credit where it is due, when I pointed out all the problems the foreman doesn't try and BS or gaslight me. He was very polite and contrite about the problems, agreeing that nothing here was acceptable. He tried briefly to salvage the job, offering a discount and to re-start with his "best crew" (which I noted was 2 of the same 3 guys from yesterday including the one who lied to my face about caulking the joints). I pulled the plug and had him and his crew rip out everything they'd installed yesterday and truck it off. The problems were even more glaring as they were taking things down, showing just how little anyone on the crew understood or cared about their work.

So insulation is right back to square one, and I'm feeling pretty defeated over the whole thing. No idea where I'm going from here, but just buying my own spray-foam tanks is starting to look more appealing versus relying on contractors (most of whom were flaky enough just trying to get a quote much less this horror show). Thankfully I'm not out any money, just a lot of time.

 

 

[Chestnut]

That sucks. Seems like an easy process it's hard to believe they messed it up. Doesn't seem like they ever intended to do it the right way honestly.

[justaguy]

I am sorry you have to go through this BS

[Tom King]

People still ask me why I do everything myself. 

[Coop]

On 3/20/2022 at 6:07 PM, Tom King said:

People still ask me why I do everything myself. 

But you shouldn’t have to and some folks can’t. Crappy contractors are appearing to be the norm. 

[Tom King]

Crappy contractors have been the norm since I first started.  I really don't mind doing everything myself.  I made a very good living at it.  It's a lot less aggravating to me than all that's involved with getting someone else to do it.  When I first started in 1974, the first house I built I used contractors because I didn't really know how to do anything.  That was the last time I've ever used one.  This was the middle of nowhere then, so it was probably even worse than it is now, but I wouldn't bet on it.

First, it's almost impossible to do any kind of job well when you don't have good working conditions.  Doing that job off ladders is not going to work.  I would at least want a man lift.  If the worker gets tired early, the job suffers as it goes along.

The little bathroom house I'm redoing is a good example.  The 14' long walls are 3-1/2" out of parallel.  They set the first wall plate, measured from outside to outside on one end, and the other end outside to inside.  I know that must have been what happened.  The biggest trouble with people doing the simplest jobs is keeping their mind on the work.  Nothing aggravates me any more than having people around who want to talk about something else while they're trying to do work.

That's just one problem.  Others will be there when one trade follows another.  It's always the other guys fault.

One advantage of doing everything is I can do any part of the job as it went along.  With that building as an example, I would have put the insulation in place as a part of building the roof.  If it was already built, then it has to be dealt with, but the worker needs to be comfortable and safe to do good work.

[BonPacific]

On 3/20/2022 at 1:23 PM, Chestnut said:

That sucks. Seems like an easy process it's hard to believe they messed it up. Doesn't seem like they ever intended to do it the right way honestly.

This was my read as well. I wouldn't be surprised if I caught the foreman skipping work day 1, and the crew not caring in the first place. I get the feeling there were problems at the company even before the crew got started.

It wasn't even like they were rushing through the job and cutting corners, which while bad is a little more understandable. Work was both slow and shoddy.

On 3/20/2022 at 4:07 PM, Tom King said:

People still ask me why I do everything myself. 

I wish it didn't have to so often come down to this, or that DIY wasn't equally as much of a crapshot. I had to fix a ton of problems (electrical in particular) at my previous house that the prior owner had DIY'd. But it wasn't much better with the contractors back there either.

Even with reviews, recommendations, doing my own research, and avoiding the cheapest or youngest companies I'm averaging about 50/50 good/bad contractors (the roofers I used last is another horror story).

Most of us just don't have the time to become expert builders in addition to a dayjob and hobbies.

On 3/21/2022 at 5:35 AM, Tom King said:

First, it's almost impossible to do any kind of job well when you don't have good working conditions.  ... If the worker gets tired early, the job suffers as it goes along.

...

If it was already built, then it has to be dealt with, but the worker needs to be comfortable and safe to do good work.

This is an important point that seems lost on so many employers, regardless of industry.

[BonPacific]

Whew! Feels like it's been a slog getting to this point, but things are finally feeling like some real progress has happened.

After the <BLEEP> insulation job above I took a couple weeks off, before trying again with a recommendation from an acquaintance for a company that "wasn't run by morons back when I was in the biz". And thankfully that was still the case, as they did a bang-up job. I decided to bite the bullet and get 3" spray foam. Do it right or pay twice.

In progress shot. Two guys got the whole roof done in a long day. They did leave the scissor lift behind for a week, but that was an issue with the rental company not the installers. I also got some use out of it, installing two electrical cord reels on the trusses while it was there.

After they got the ceiling done, I put in an order for 5.5" thick mineral wool batts. The delivery included forklifting the palets into my shop, which was very much appreciated.

With some help from my inlaws I got the walls 90% insulated in about 3 days. There's one or two bays I'm holding off on for other tasks (like installing a window and running dust collection pipe).

In-between the insulation stages, I cleaned my floors and refit the existing rubber mats better, before fixing them in place (I left room for expansion) with a couple of tapcon screws and brass bushings along the front edge. This helps keep them from shifting around when driving a vehicle in and out of the shop. I don't remember where I read about this tip, but I can 100% recommend it.

Next step is going to be covering the lower 8' of wall with t1-11. I bought a pallet from the big orange store, which should wrap the lower shop area. I'll switch to hardboard (pre-primed white) for the top 4' of wall that this plywood won't cover. At that height I'm not worried about being able to screw into any spot.

And, as is apparently tradition, some bonus wild (and not so wild) life.

Flushed this little (~3") guy out while mowing around the shop.

[Coop]

To get the 3” of foam, since it’s overhead, did they have to spray multiple thin layers? 

[BonPacific]

On 5/1/2022 at 6:41 PM, Coop said:

To get the 3” of foam, since it’s overhead, did they have to spray multiple thin layers? 

Yeah. It looked like they'd do it it 2-3 passes over a section, with a couple minutes between. I checked the depth as well, and it's 3" at a minimum, more like 3.5-4" over most of it.

[justaguy]

It is looking really good.  I started on mine at the end of Sept, '21.  Finally rounding the last turn

[BonPacific]

Been awhile...

Walls

The T1-11 went up without too much trouble, aside from the usual errors that creep in when measuring for outlet boxes. Should have measured thrice. I got some help from my wife, but most of the panels were cut and wrestled into place solo.

After the lower 8' was done, I switched to 5mm underlay plywood for the upper layer. It's pretty floppy and bulges out over the insulation, but it's cheap, decent looking, and protects the insulation. I still need to trim out the transition to keep the underlay flat. I'm considering doing  a french cleat all the way around, because why not?

I'm doing all the loft walls in the 5mm ply, since I'm not really worried about hanging stuff on it, or routinely smashing into it. Most of the walls up here will be covered in shelves anyways.

The front wall is framed every which way to sunday... It's also more than 50% door/window, so I've been kind of avoiding dealing with it until the easier part of the structure is finished. I'm alternating between just buying a bale of 4" insulation, or furring it out to use my remaining 6" batts. The spacing is all over the place though so I'll have to cut every batt to fit regardless.

Back Window

I wanted to make the shop a little less cave-like and bring in some natural light near the planned bench location and allow a nice cross breeze on pleasant days. My father had a 5' window laying around which I was able to snag for free. Almost could have gone larger, but not at the prices of new windows.

A fine homebuilder I am not, but I was able to cut a notch in the old fiber siding, flash, seal, and trim it up well enough for my needs. This window faces south across the neighbor's pasture.

Dust collection
I've been holding off on running ducting because I didn't like the idea of redoing it soon and my little HF collector and Oneida cyclone just wouldn't be up to the task of 6" pipe. Luckily I was able to snag an old 3HP blower, so I'll be running a 6" metal ducting main. I'm not 100% sure if I'm going to go with 6" or 4" drops to the machines. From reading it seems the increased airspeed of the smaller diameter will be more important with such tall ceilings than volume. And I'm much more willing to swap out verticals than redo the entire system.

Tables and Benches and Storage oh my!
Another thing I did was expand the rubber flooring under the loft. I'll still need one more trip to the tractor supply to cover the entryway, but at least now I can roll my carts anywhere in the shop as needed

I got this stack of flat files from a local surveying business, and added 3" casters so I can access the underside of the stairs for deep storage. I removed two drawers, and extended the drawer fronts with plywood so as to have two double-height drawers. The flat storage is already starting to fill up with hardware and materials, and I'm treating the top as my "red tag" space for collecting miscellaneous things that haven't been sorted or are otherwise missing a home.

This is what I'm calling my finishing corner for the moment. I don't have a real spray system, but this area is still designated for finishing tasks and has already been used a few times. I'll probably add a small exhaust fan to vent fumes outside, and might add a curtain or something to protect the rest of the shop (and reduce dust intrusion) when using rattle cans or the like.

While a little cart-before-the-horse, I added a dedicated sharpening cart. Still extremely basic, but having my grinder and stones always available should help me keep up with my sharpening. It'll live next to the lathe, but with wheels I can easily drag it over next to the workbench when needed.

The vari-grind setup is absolutely worth it. If you're considering one I heartily recommend it

Next steps will be tearing down the entry-way shelves that came with the place so I can get the last of the walls up, running DC ducting, and insulating the front wall as best I can.

Bonus shop dog.

[wtnhighlander]

I think you will appreciate having the sharpening cart ready to go!

[Coop]

That is going to be a really sweet work shop. Will you be painting the walls?

[BonPacific]

On 6/17/2022 at 8:02 PM, Coop said:

That is going to be a really sweet work shop. Will you be painting the walls?

Plan is to leave them natural. I can always change my mind and paint them white down the line.

[Coop]

Although I like the look of natural wood and cringe when I have to paint something I made at the order of the recipient, I think you would be amazed at how much brighter and larger the area will look and feel if it were painted whitish. 

[BonPacific]

I did the white paint in my last shop. This shop is already more than large enough feeling. I'm enjoying the "warmth" of the current ambiance in the shop, which helps motivate me to get out there and do stuff.

[BonPacific]

It's been awhile! Let's dive into all the changes in the last six months or so. This has been helpful for me to keep track of how much has actually changed. It's easy to get discouraged when all you see most days are incremental improvements.

Walls/Insulation

There's a narrow strip of un-insulated wall above the garage doors, but aside from that everything is finally buttoned up, and I can report success through Summer and Winter. Summer was mostly relying on a nice cross-breeze between the garage door and back window (above, still one of the best things I've done), with a little window-unit to take the edge off on the hottest days (mid-90s). Winter performance was absolutely fantastic. A little 1200W heater running intermittently keeps the whole space above 50 (even when we hit our low of 16 this year), and I only turn on the big 5kw unit (still on low) when I'm out there working. Having gone through most of a year now I think I can comfortably estimate the mini-split system size when I get around to installing one of those.

I did switch to thinner 4" mineral wool insulation at the peak of each wall because there's an outside truss I would have had to cut around, and I also didn't really want to deal with the effort of adding in extra girts/framing to support the heavier insulation. As it is, the 4" stuff sits nicely in the wall cavity and presses up against the interior 5mm plywood, putting any airgaps between the cold side of the insulation and the exterior sheathing. I may need to check for settling in a few years, but it should be easy enough to top up if it ever becomes an issue. If I had to do it again I'd just pay the spray-foam folks to include the eaves, but I didn't and it'd cost too much to have them out and setup again.

Speaking of the spray foam, a few months back I did have an issue with it pulling away (1/8th to 1/4") from the purlins in a few spots. My assumption is a slightly off mixture or batch from the manufacturer resulting in extra creep when sprayed on quickly. To their credit the installers scheduled me asap (obviously at no cost) to come out and cut away the affected portions and re-spray those. I have had no more issues with the foam (old or new) in the months since their fix. Bit of a hassle to clear the floors again, but worth it and makes me happy that the warranty is proven. Good thing I hadn't put up any ceiling coverings.

New Tools/Layout

I found a decent deal on an old G1018. Aside from cleaning up some surface rust it didn't need a huge amount of tune-up, though I haven't quite eliminated snipe on the outfeed side. The motor doesn't like cold mornings, so I have a little 200W heater I keep next to it that I can use to heat just that machine/motor up a little higher when working in the cold.

Years ago I had a Hitachi chopsaw, but there just wasn't enough space in my last 1-car shop to dedicate to it so I gave that one away. Christmas this year brought a new DeWalt compound miter saw to my door, which needed a place to live. So with material prices what they are right now I cobbled together a bare-bones miter saw station with a couple cabinets I ripped out of the main house and scrap plywood. I expect I'll be replacing this station in a few years (thus ensuring it will last at least 10 years /s) but for the cost (scrap) this one works great. This also finally gave me a spot to home my mortiser. This was a gift from one of my wife's (late) relatives who was a great carpenter, and despite not having space for it I kept this one in storage until now.

This was taken with a macro from the loft, so distances look a little distorted. The assembly table isn't as close to the router as it looks.

Initially I had the jointer and planer lined up along the middle garage door, with the bandsaw floating between my assembly table and workbench. But this meant a lot of walking back and forth and I didn't love having the jointer so far away when I knew I eventually needed to hook it up to the DC. So I decided to cluster up the jointer, planer, bandsaw, and router table into a tool island closer to the other machines, in-between the two doors. I rotated the assembly table to make room, and it feels more natural aligned with the lumber rack. All four island tools are arranged to let their in/outfeed pass by each other and I'm pretty happy with it all. This also let me put in a ducting "tree" similar to @gee-dub's excellent example. I didn't want to mount mine directly to the concrete though, so I screwed the 6" end-cap to a spare piece of plywood which is in-turn screwed into the rubber flooring with short screws. Since there is little to no lifting force the plywood foot stays firmly in place on the rubber mats unless I want to relocate it. For the moment I have heavy duty 110 and 220 extension cords powering this island, but long-term I'll wire new drops from the ceiling. The ceiling cord has a couple cable-clamps to act as strain relief.

I don't yet have a permanent home for my belt and spindle sanders. They may end up replacing my sharpening stones on the sharpening bench if I move that function to a separate location (since the stones don't exactly need dust collection). The grinder obviously needs to live next to the lathe, but the stones could live anywhere, and might take over a now-vacated fliptop stand so I can pull them up next to the bench.

Overall I'm liking this layout. Wood selection happens at the rack by the assembly table or in the exterior wood shed (mostly plywood) and feeds reasonably well through the roughing tools. There's plenty of room for a parts cart or full sheet of plywood in the machine bay. For breaking down sheet goods I do the classic foam insulation on the floor.

Both garage doors can be made accessible, but the one in the machine bay is kept consistently clear. The middle door has my recycling bin and large red-tag areas. You always need a spot to just lean random junk against or to work on new tools when they come in. Aside from the big recycling bin, I keep two trashcans, a box for clean (burnable) offcuts, and a clean shavings bin in various spots around the shop.

Dust Collection

Got my new (old) 3HP Jet mounted in the woodshed, nestled up into the rafters. This puts the intake from the cyclone just over 8ft inside the shop. Had a few misadventures with improperly-specced lifts from the rental place, apparently for the 8 years they had their 11ft lift listed nobody ever tried to extend it above 10ft, but eventually I got everything lined up.

(ignore the dodgy cover plate, I replaced it with an outdoor enclosure)

Before doing so I replaced the old fraying and possibly-undersized power cable on the motor with some probably-oversized salvaged shorepower cable and new plug end. The sheathing is dirty on the outside, but is in great shape with no uv-cracking or any internal issues. I then installed a wireless switch. Technically the advertised horsepower of the DC is above what they recommend for the switch, but the actual amperage/voltage draw of the motor is within range (guessing some over-statement on the HP from JET). I'm obviously not a production shop, so the DC isn't running 8-hours per day and I feel safe with this wireless switch. I also picked up a couple extra remotes, so each tool cluster has a switch that lives near it or on my belt.

I re-did the ducting a few times until I had a layout I was mostly happy with. I went with snap-lock 6" galvanized pipe for all components, taped or siliconed at the seams. This was primarily a function of cost, as when I priced out PVC it would have been at least double the price just for the fittings. But overall I like this stuff and found it pretty forgiving to work with. Obviously the crimped connections are not ideal for airflow, but even so I have plenty of suction out to the more distant tools. I considered making my own blast gates, but with so much else going on I just bit the bullet and bought some metal ones from powertec.

Getting the angled trunk for the island supported was a bit of an endeavor. I like my high open ceilings, but it makes hanging things tricky, and another downside of the metal ducting is it's in 5' segments and long runs like this can sag. I didn't really want to hang the duct from the roof purlins. So I added a couple of 2x4 "joists" to the trusses using hanger brackets so that I could then support the duct with hanger straps. Despite a laser crosshair and level I still managed to install them crooked. But for my needs they're totally fine. The bluetape was temporary for getting the completed long run lifted into place and I'd misplaced my long zipties. I'll probably leave the long 1x3 attached for rigidity.

As well as the DC, I got a screaming deal on a used 1000CFM Jet air cleaner. I hung that from the truss near my table saw pointing the exhaust air towards my workbench. My smaller grizzly unit I put under the planer for now, pointing its exhaust into the machine bay.

Not sure how well this will show up, but I took a panorama from the middle of the shop. Happy to answer any questions!

The Future

While there is obviously a lot still to do, I'm comfortable calling this version 1.0 of The New Mossback Workshop. Everything functions, and it's quite nice to work in. I'm starting in on a new breakfast table for the house, and even just prototyping has been a blast.

Next shop-projects are to put together an outfeed table for the tablesaw, a few more storage cabinets, and figure out what to do with the back corner. I've also got a few small changes I want to make to the dust hookups for the planer and router that I need to wait on fittings for.

In the near future I want to add a "portable" utility sink to the entryway. I don't have any plumbing to the shop so I use a 5-gallon water cooler and will pipe the sink into a spare jug. I don't work with a lot of noxious chemicals out here, so I should be able to just dump it into the septic when the jug fills up.

The finishing corner is pretty no-frills, but I've been thinking rather than an expensive louvered exhaust fan I may just install a small window that I can stick an exhaust fan in if needed but also enjoy more light and airflow on good days. I'm also looking at some sort of heavy curtain to contain overspray when desired without permanently blocking off that part of the shop.

Bonus

This is Bo, our current foster-pup. He's way happier hanging out in the shop with me than either of our permanent dogs are.

 

[justaguy]

I like it.   Well done young man

[Coop]

Fantastic job and great description. Looks like a shop that you can enjoy all year for years to come. 

[wtnhighlander]

Definitely a workspace to be jealous of!