Has anyone compared "wood focused" ceramic coatings vs coatings used for autos, etc?

[Tristan Juricek]

There's starting to become more interest in ceramic coatings for wood finishes, which has some interesting properties. Like, I'm wondering if it would help me avoid coffee stains on my desk top I want to build soon.

But where this gets super unclear is if the products from N3, Carbon Method, or Black Forest actually can back up the claim they work better on top of common wood finishes than, say, a ceramic coating you'd use on a car. All I've seen is that people put them on a table top, throw some liquid on it and watch it bead. And then say "man, it works but is sure is pricey!"

Are there any resources from, say, someone who can read the SDS sheet and see if these woodworking-focused products are actually truly different and where they're safe, i.e., won't accelerate your finish going kaput and won't kill you slowly if you use them on a desk or a table? 

I realize I'm asking more internet randos about chemistry, but this seems like the right place :D 

[Chet]

On YouTube there is the guy that has a channel called Blacktail Studios.. He uses it all the time on his projects.  I would look there to see if he has some contact information.  I am sure he could answer your questions.

[Tom King]

I have several brands for cars and boats, but none for wood finishes.  I'd be surprised if there is much, if any, difference.  Wood finishes are a lot softer than automotive, but the ceramic coating is so thin that I doubt it matters. 

Even with a coating on cars, I still use the Meguiars hybrid spray on before drying after washing a car.  It's so easy to use and seems worth the little bit of extra effort.  It has to be put on wet though, so wouldn't work on a piece of furniture.

https://www.amazon.com/MEGUIARS-G190532SP-Hybrid-Ceramic-Fluid_Ounces/dp/B07R5QH6H6/ref=sxin_15_pa_sp_search_thematic_sspa?content-id=amzn1.sym.d17ca69f-1a39-4f7d-a62f-e5dff4cfd6d8%3Aamzn1.sym.d17ca69f-1a39-4f7d-a62f-e5dff4cfd6d8&crid=11822KSIY5NMN&cv_ct_cx=meguiars%2Bhybrid%2Bceramic%2Bwax&keywords=meguiars%2Bhybrid%2Bceramic%2Bwax&pd_rd_i=B07R5QH6H6&pd_rd_r=2139374a-042a-4df6-8a38-d0a439eeac2a&pd_rd_w=Hee5H&pd_rd_wg=OfYVD&pf_rd_p=d17ca69f-1a39-4f7d-a62f-e5dff4cfd6d8&pf_rd_r=VKWVFXD3YMPGPFQC3MY7&qid=1702646130&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sprefix=meguiars%2Bhyb%2Caps%2C121&sr=1-4-364cf978-ce2a-480a-9bb0-bdb96faa0f61-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9zZWFyY2hfdGhlbWF0aWM&th=1

[Tristan Juricek]

Just to be clear, I'm mostly curious about any kind of independent review, that might actually help understand how the interaction between the ceramic coating and the wood finish. I do like what Blacktail Studios is doing, but they aren't exactly independent, since they produce a coating themselves.

All I've seen are people just throwing wine or liquid on top, e.g., like this guy: 

So, I'm mostly seeing reviews where the review just sees the change to the surface, and doesn't exactly test how it interacts with common wood finishes. Like, Black Forest claims they're water-based not solvent based and that should not interact with oil-based wood finishes. I can't tell if that's actually true yet.

I do think most of the ceramic coatings for wood are coming from a "good faith" perspective and trying to make a product that should be easy to use for woodworkers, but it sure would be nice to have someone with a little more knowledge of testing the chemistry do the evaluation. 

Ah well, that's just life on the bleeding edge of new tech. :D 

[Chestnut]

From my personal research into ceramic coatings for cars i can say the woodworking modifier is extremely similar. I will also say it's completely bonkers to consider. It takes a low/zero VOC product that is relatively safe and makes it hazardous. The ceramic coatings that are used in the car detailing world are recommended to be applied with VOC masks and nitrile or latex gloves at all times as the compounds in them are hazardous to your health.

It's not even easy to discern from the SDS what level a finish is harmful. It doesn't state if the compound is water or fat soluble or if it's a heavy metal that never leaves your bloodstream. The LD50 of ethanol on an SDS makes it seem like it'll easily cause death. Yet we (humans) often consume ethanol in vast quantities, without death. Consuming it in vapor form has the same effect as liquid form, that said in vapor form it can be harmful mostly because ethanol vapor is typically quite pure so a big whif can give you a large dose. Is it more harmful to inhale it? From my research no, it just makes the compound enter your bloodstream in a different manner.

Here is my point. Taking a marginally safe product, mono coat, and adding a harmful modifier turns that finish into something not much different from lacquer or poly. BUT! both lacquer and poly are FAR FAR more durable. So why not just go the tried and true route? I mean that as poly or lacquer not "tried and true (tm)" which is a woodworking finish as well. My second point is cost, HOLY BATMAN, ceramic coats and monocoat are expensive. So WHY!?! Toss that stuff in the bin and grab some wiping poly and call it a day.

If you want a good safe finish. Start buying everclear and mixing your own shellac flakes. Every bit of research I've found points to being able to consume shellac, as it's often refered to as child safe.  Everclear is used to mix beverages and is often consumed safely in large quantities in this region. It tastes really good when you mix it with some water, cinnamon, and burnt sugar. To make it a bit more durable, wax it.

 

[JohnG]

What’s wrong with the common wood finishes? I don’t have any coffee stains on my coffee table, dining table, desks, or wood coasters and I drink coffee all day every day. Putting another coating on top of the finish seems like solving a problem that doesn’t exist. If you want to put another coating on top to satisfy the feeling that you are giving it extra protection, slap on a coat of paste wax afterward and keep your money. 
 

And +1 to all of what Chestnut said. 

[Tristan Juricek]

Thanks @Chestnut - this is basically the kind of insight I was looking for.

I just didn't see anyone do much analysis of the application process what what happens after, and if it just "made sense" as a finish option in general. The high cost and fact you had to wait for the underlying coat to fully cure triggered my spider sense that more information/research is needed, and it might just not be a great idea to be a guinea pig 

Totally agree with the other current options being valuable, but with new tech, it's always good to see a deep evaluation and see if there's something interesting to learn

[wtnhighlander]

I'll offer one more observation, having studied these coatings a bit after seeing this question. Every product description touts hardness & scratch resistance as the leading feature of these "ceramic" coatings, supposedly making them more durable. However, wood is a natural material that constantly moves with changes to its environment. It seems to me that a very hard coating would tend to crack when the surface it was applied to expanded or shrank beneath it.

[pkinneb]

Here are a couple of videos I found interesting on the subject. I still agree with @Chestnut that I personally have not seen a use case for this that would get me to spend the extra time and money but hey to each their own  

 

[Chestnut]

On 12/15/2023 at 7:22 PM, wtnhighlander said:

Every product description touts hardness & scratch resistance as the leading feature of these "ceramic" coatings, supposedly making them more durable. However, wood is a natural material that constantly moves with changes to its environment. It seems to me that a very hard coating would tend to crack when the surface it was applied to expanded or shrank beneath it.

From my limited understanding there are 2 ways to prevent scratches. The first is for the material to be harder, and that I'd agree with you on the brittle and not moving with wood. The other is to be lubricated. When i read about ceramic coatings i read words like "cross link" and "long chains of polymers". It makes me ask are they more akin to plastic than a true ceramic? Regardless of the answer to that, I think they operate more on the 2nd principal, lubricating the surface. Also they won't prevent scratches, they will just help reduce swirl marks. The most often associated term is hydrophobic, so I'd bet they are excellent at repelling water away from wood, but that's what the finish should be doing any way?

I dove deep on ceramic coatings in the car world to see if they were worth it to have applied to my "collector" car. It's not really a collector car but it's a car that I don't see myself selling ever so what else would I call it.

Circling back to shellac, I'm starting to be REALLY sold on it as a finish. My toddlers kitchen tower is coated with 5 coats of Zinnnser Seal Coat. It's endured 6 months of toddler abuse and still looks like the day I finished it. That includes multiple milk and water spills and TONS of peanut butter. Luckily she hasn't started drinking coffee or red wine yet.... . Oh additional context we don't use sippy cups only open cups so there are a LOT of spills.

[Tom King]

The main thing I see about the ceramic coatings on cars is that it makes it easier to clean next time.  It sure is shiny too.  I see no need for anything fancier than the Meguiars Hybrid ceramic spray that I linked earlier.   

We're enjoying the foam cannon too.  Having that little electric power washer ready to go all the time makes it the easiest way to wash a vehicle.  If I had to dig out and hook up a power washer every time I wanted to use it, the foam cannon wouldn't be worth it.

More work for nothing on wood finish I expect though.

[pkinneb]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:51 PM, Tom King said:

The main thing I see about the ceramic coatings on cars is that it makes it easier to clean next time.  It sure is shiny too.  I see no need for anything fancier than the Meguiars Hybrid ceramic spray that I linked earlier.   

We're enjoying the foam cannon too.  Having that little electric power washer ready to go all the time makes it the easiest way to wash a vehicle.  If I had to dig out and hook up a power washer every time I wanted to use it, the foam cannon wouldn't be worth it.

More work for nothing on wood finish I expect though.

Agreed on cars it makes total sense and I have seen the value all of ours are ceramic coated. I also love my foam cannon its another way to not scratch the paint. I use Adams polishes for most of my car care and its the only ceramic product I have experience with. They have 20-25% sales about every other week so I just wait if I need product.

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

Does anyone have any info/opinions/experience on using "The Carbon Method" as treatment for cast iron tool tables? I think that's it's intended purpose but could be wrong. 

I've got a new machine coming in a few weeks. I've heard ppl say favorable things about it, but i don't know how credible they are. 

. Thanks

Doug 

[JohnG]

Marc did a video or two on them. 

[wtnhighlander]

I use the 'oxide method'.

Wait for light rust to form, scrub away anything loose, and wax the crap out of it. Repeated treatments will 'brown' the cast iron, just like old firearms used to be treated. The iron oxide + wax layer has proved to be an effective barrier against pitting rust in my mostly uncontrolled environment (West Tennessee).

If you are impatient, the process can be accelerated with a fine mist of saly water....

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:35 PM, wtnhighlander said:

I use the 'oxide method'.

Wait for light rust to form, scrub away anything loose, and wax the crap out of it. Repeated treatments will 'brown' the cast iron, just like old firearms used to be treated. The iron oxide + wax layer has proved to be an effective barrier against pitting rust in my mostly uncontrolled environment (West Tennessee).

If you are impatient, the process can be accelerated with a fine mist of saly water....

I've done the same and it's always worked out well. Probably no need to change things up but I'm just curious about new products. 

When i saw the price tag to do 2-3 machines was over $100... Let's just say that my can of wax started looking very attractive. 

.i can think of many other things i would rather spend 100$ on

[Chestnut]

Is there a benefit to letting the oxide form and then waxing, opposed to just waxing regularly and if the oxide forms treat it as mentioned?

[wtnhighlander]

@Chestnut, I believe the oxide forms a much more durable coating, more resistant to further rusting, than wax alone on a clean cast iron surface. Of course, you give up that shiny, 'new machine' appearance.

[Coop]

@wtnhighlander, are you talking paste wax, like Johnson’s which I’ve heard they no longer make? 

[wtnhighlander]

Yes, @Coop. I used the last of my Johnson's paste wax for floors back in the spring, now using Minwax paste wax for furniture. Definitely not tge same, but the effectiveness seems close enough.

[Mark J]

I've used both waxes. They look the same to me.  What differences do you see?

[wtnhighlander]

@MarkJ, When I had both at hand, it was obvious that the Johnsons had a higher oil content. The Minwax is more solid, maybe a different blend of waxes as well.

I grew up in a 1969 vintage home with hardwood floors. For several years, waxing & buffing was a Saturday morning ritual. Can't say I miss it ...

[Chestnut]

@Mark J From my reading also the johnsons applies thinner and people had success not buffing off the excess. Minwax leaves a bit thicker film and you pretty much have to come back and buff 10 min after application.

[had_thad82]

I've used both from black forest and black tail Studios. Let me just say its subjective there is no standard that we all have to follow but if I make something and I'm proud of it I'm going to give it its best chance of lasting the longest it can.

I've used it on pepper mills and a few tables and it really does help with keeping out some of the acidic alkalines that are in our skin naturally or in certain food seasonings.

As I said it is subjective on how much it helps or how long it will last but I can say 100% it does help. 

 

[had_thad82]

Oh and when it comes to coating your table saw or lathe bed. 

Table saw it helps but I wouldn't use it on the lathe. 

Once again it's subjective and not for everybody I don't mind paying a little bit extra for a superior product that makes my life easier later on down the road. 

And if you think it doesn't make a difference try it. 

Rather then  speculating what it would be like and coming to a conclusion and sharing your opinion without even trying it. 

Edited November 16 by wtnhighlander
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