Paul Sellers: don't need to sharpen more than 250 grit.

[Nick2cd]

Interesting video. I didn't post this to ruffle any feathers or start a war. I just found this to be enlightening.

[Dan S]

lol, I like how he basically contradicts himself at the end of the video. He should have just said, how fine you go depends on what you need to do.

[Tom King]

One point he didn't make is that the sharper you get something, the longer it will cut as it gradually dulls.  Start with the minimum, and you don't have far to go.  While I'm whetting anything, I'll take the little extra time at the stones to get it as sharp as possible. It only takes 5 or 6 strokes on Diamond Lapping Film to get an edge several steps sharper than you can shave with. 

[Llama]

Fair point Tom. Would you agree that a blades effective angle also contributes to longevity?

[G S Haydon]

I think there was a good message hid behind Paul's showmanship. Like Dan says, sharpen for what you need to do. Cheap Silicon Carbide/Aluminium Oxide stones are fine, I have one like this in my site box. I have an India stone for most tasks in my Joinery shop. I have just purchased a hard and soft Arkansas for my hobby tools.

 

What I find hard with clips like this is the "concern", I have yet to see anyone saying you must sharpen to 15000> if anything the most discerning tool makers stop at 8000. If anything Paul goes very very fine if his videos are anything to go by, prepping the back of chisels with finer and finer abrasive sheets and then buffing on a strop charged with abrasive compound? Mirror finish . Polishing and More Polishing . I'm actually concerned now, surely he should of stopped at 250 on all his tools?

 

Also "Scandinavian Redwood" or European Redwood as it is known is perhaps the most easily worked and forgiving timber out there. Again nothing wrong with demoing on it because it is a really great utility species but please don't think its tricky or a "hard" softwood.

 

Could any software engineer chime in, sounds like you sharpen to 50000!

 

If this video was called "sharpen for what you need" with good info on the type of work is best suited to which type of grit then it would of been more useful. But I suppose that would not of provoked debate and we would not be talking about it.

 

Also remember from a "historical perspective" (which has to extend beyond the early/mid 20th century if you want to apply the term "History") that before India stones it was Arkansas, Charnley Forest, Turkey, Washita  which were all fine oil stones used to apply a secondary sharpening bevel. 

[wm_crash]

Hi,

 

I happen to be a software engineer and I just really like the whole sharpening gig (waterstones, diamond stones, japanese naturals, tormek, jigs, stropping compounds, etc.). I currently go up to 15K, then I sometimes strop on 0.5 micron. The 30K stone is on my short list. Alternatively, I could try to find a small Nakayama asagi which may just cost less than the 30K stone.

 

cheers,

wm_crash, the friendly hooligan

[TRBaker]

Can any of you guys advise me where I can buy a 1500 grit belt for my belt sander?

[wilburpan]

What I find hard with clips like this is the "concern", I have yet to see anyone saying you must sharpen to 15000> if anything the most discerning tool makers stop at 8000. If anything Paul goes very very fine if his videos are anything to go by, prepping the back of chisels with finer and finer abrasive sheets and then buffing on a strop charged with abrasive compound? Mirror finish . Polishing and More Polishing . I'm actually concerned now, surely he should of stopped at 250 on all his tools?

 

 

The other area of “concern” is that it’s a lot of time wasted by going to higher grits. Paul Sellers says in his accompanying blog post that “Demonstrators spend an hour developing a perfect edge, find a perfect piece of wood to shave and remove a shaving a full two inches wide and half-a-thou thick and float it in the air in front of an audience struggling to get a shaving of any kind.” The implication is that it takes a lot of time to get to that finer edge.

 

I’m calling shenanigans on this one. It certainly doesn’t take an hour to sharpen up to 8000-15000 grit on waterstones. As a matter of fact, if I was to break down the amount of time it takes me to fully sharpen a dull tool, using a set of 1000/5000/8000 grit waterstones, I spend about 80% of the time on the 1000 grit waterstone, 10% of the time on the 5000, and 10% of the time on the 8000. In real numbers, we’re talking at most a minute each on the 5000 and the 8000 grits. So that’s really not a lot of "time wasted”. Heck, I’ll waste two minutes just by taking a break to clean up a little and clear my head.

 

In addition, once you get a sharp edge, it is far easier and takes less time overall to maintain that edge by frequently rehoning the tool, than it is to let the tool get dull and go through the whole routine again. If you adopt that sharpening strategy (and I think we all should), there is no time difference between honing quickly with an 8000 grit waterstone and honing with Paul Seller’s 250 grit diamond stone.

 

One other observation: I think what Paul Sellers’ demo really shows is that you can get away with sharpening to 250 grit provided that you are using perfectly clear straight grained stock.

[Tony Wilkins]

This plays right into what I've been wondering for a bit.  I currently have only two waterstones - a Hida 1,000 grit 'red brick' and a King S3 6,000 grit.  As I get into these sharpening discussion I begin to feel that maybe I should get a third 10,000 or higher grit stone.  But then I'll see a video like Sellers' or read a blog/forum that says that it's a waste of time going up any higher than 8K.

 

So what am I really buying if I get a higher stone?  Wilbur, I think you're on the right track as far as what I'm looking for as an explanation.  How much of a difference does the higher grit make in edge retention?

[wilburpan]

I notice a difference in going up to the highest grit sharpening device that I have, which is a natural Japanese waterstone that’s somewhere up around 15000 grit. The main thing that I notice is that the tool is easier to use, which is what Paul Sellers says in his video. That alone makes the extra step in sharpening worthwhile to me. Paul seems to think that it’s not worthwhile for him, but he’s entitled to his opinion.

 

I don’t really care that much about edge retention. I used to worry about such things until I learned how to sharpen. Once you have a sharpening system that works well for you, my bet is that you will feel the same. All things considered, today I’d rather have a tool that is easier to sharpen than a tool that holds an edge longer, simply because the time I spend refreshing the edge when using the tool is pretty trivial compared to how much time a typical project takes.

 

The one disadvantage to the super high grit waterstones is that they do cost more. But there’s always a strop and green honing compound, which will get you a very comparable edge. I don’t mind paying the price difference for a high grit waterstone because I like the way that waterstones feel in use, whereas I don’t like using a strop. This is strictly personal preference. But if I try to save money by buying a strop because it’s cheaper than a high grit waterstone, and I never use it because I don’t like it, that’s a bigger waste of money than spending the extra cash for a waterstone that I will happily use all the time.

[Dan S]

Tony,

 

It  depends on what your needs/wants are. Without knowing anything about someone I usually recommend the following.

 

1. A cheap bench grinder with a course (46 to 80 grit) and very friable wheel. Understanding how to pick a wheel. takes a little time but when you do the research you can understand the industry nomenclature pretty easily.

2. any honing guide

3. a 1k stone

4. a 3k to 5k stone

5. a 8k stone 

 

the bench grinder is what you will use to take out severe kicks and re-establish the primary bevel/hollow grind. The 1k is what you use to finalize the primary bevel. The 8k is what you use for setting , and  refreshing the secondary bevel. The 3k to 5k only comes out to play when you are doing work on a blades back. You can use just a 1k and 8k stone, but you will not like how long it takes to get the 1k scratches out with the 8k.

 

 

right now my set up is:

1. 46 grit wheel on the bench grinder

2. 1k sigma select II

3. 5k Naniwa super stone

4. 8k Naniwa super stone

5. 0.5 micron honing compound on Hard Maple

6. 400 grit Atoma diamond plate for flattening the stones

 

Eventually I'd like to swap out the Naniwa's for Sigma select II's and pick up a 3k sigma select II and a 13K sigma select. I really like how the Sigma 2's cut. I started with my grinder and sandpaper on granite, and was able to get a good edge, but in my opinion it's not as good as the edge off the higher grit stones.

[wtnhighlander]

I had the impression that Mr. Sellers was trying to convince people that it just wasn't absolutely necessary to mirror polish your tools to get the job done. He did say that doing so is fine, and does make the job easier. To me, it just sounded like a way to keep newbies from obsessing over sharpening to the point no wood ever gets worked.

[G S Haydon]

I had the impression that Mr. Sellers was trying to convince people that it just wasn't absolutely necessary to mirror polish your tools to get the job done. He did say that doing so is fine, and does make the job easier. To me, it just sounded like a way to keep newbies from obsessing over sharpening to the point no wood ever gets worked.

 

I would agree, I just think it could of been done more clearly (IMO) and with less shenanigans. 

[derekcohen]

One other observation: I think what Paul Sellers’ demo really shows is that you can get away with sharpening to 250 grit provided that you are using perfectly clear straight grained stock.

 

 

Hi Wilbur

 

I agree.

 

What is the real issue that Paul Sellers is making? That one does not have to sharpen above 250? I don't think he is saying that. That 1000 grit is enough? I don't think he is saying that either. Or, that one should not waste the extra time on 15000 grit? And again, no, I don't think he is saying that as well.

 

All he is saying is that sharpening is not a recipe, that is, that sharpening has become a recipe handed down as folklore on the Internet. It is forums like this, and all the others, where beliefs about sharpening are created, fostered and believed. As if there are magic grit numbers that ensure a sharp edge. Consequently, most amateurs come to believe that they must have a 1000/5000/8000 set up to achieve a sharp edge. In the world of professional woodworkers who grew up in his apprenticeship system, sharpening was a skill developed by following the advice of experienced mentors rather than a method purchased from woodwork stores. 

 

I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It is not acceptable to argue that if it was good enough for our grandfather's generation, then it is good enough for us now. Time and technology have moved on. Recognise this. At the same time, sharpening does not require the latest and greatest. Be sensible, get to know your equipment, understand what works, and do it until it is second nature. At the end of the day woodworking is about working wood and not about honing steel.

 

Having said this, I do hone as high as I can (12000 Sharpton Pro or 13000 Sigma - but I have been doing this for a few decades and know how to work a King 6000 to behave the same way. Note that this does not mean that the King is as good a stone). 85% of the time used in sharpening is on the coarsest grit, 10% on the middle grit, and 5% on the finest grit (my guestimates). Honing high does not extend the time sharpening. It is ultimately worth the effort. Smooth is sharp, and sharp means easier and safer handtool work. Sharper also penetrates the wood more easily, and plane blades will create less tearout on interlocked grain (I'd love to see that 250 grit blade on some of my Jarrah!! ). 

 

Bottom line: experiment as much as you can when starting out. Amateur woodworkers (like myself) miss out on the training of the days of olde. We need to be cautious about the information we are offered. Practice makes perfect, and has a better outcome than fads. 

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

[CessnaPilotBarry]

 

I’m calling shenanigans on this one. It certainly doesn’t take an hour to sharpen up to 8000-15000 grit on waterstones.

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.

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In addition, once you get a sharp edge, it is far easier and takes less time overall to maintain that edge by frequently rehoning the tool, than it is to let the tool get dull and go through the whole routine again. If you adopt that sharpening strategy (and I think we all should), there is no time difference between honing quickly with an 8000 grit waterstone and honing with Paul Seller’s 250 grit diamond stone.

 

I couldn't agree more...

 

My own routine has morphed into XC-C-F-XF DMT's and 4000 and 8000 grit waterstones. 

 

Most of the time, I'm simply touching up the microbevel on the 4000 and 8000.  When the micro gets wider than about 3/32, I go back to the DMT's at the primary angle, effectively narrowing the microbevel.

 

The time spent on the 4000 and 8000 grit stones is 5-10 strokes each, regardless if it's a touch-up or the step after the DMT's.

 

Touchups take ~ 30 seconds, including mounting and dismounting a guide using a jig.  "Full" sharpenings, probably take 60-75 seconds, 15-20 strokes on XC DMT face, 5-10 on the rest, a reset of the guide using a shim, and 5-10 strokes on the 4000 / 8000...   The key is to stay on the XC until you're shaped and really ready to move on.  The other grits are simply removing larger scratches.

 

The practice of honing often also applies to waterstone flattening.  Do it regularily, and the time spent is incredibly small. 

[wilburpan]

Hi Derek,
 

Hi Wilbur
 
I agree.
 
What is the real issue that Paul Sellers is making? That one does not have to sharpen above 250? I don't think he is saying that. That 1000 grit is enough? I don't think he is saying that either. Or, that one should not waste the extra time on 15000 grit? And again, no, I don't think he is saying that as well.

 
I’d buy this, except this is what the description of the video says: 
 

In this video Paul Sellers shows that you don't need to sharpen to 15,000+ grit on you planes, chisels and other woodworking tools. 250-grit works just fine for most of our woodwork. Paul addresses the myths and misinformation put forward, and challenges what we think about sharpening.

 
Paul Sellers likes referring to 5 digit grit sizes to make it seem like that’s going to an extreme, even though that’s pretty much equivalent to stropping with green honing compound. This is from his accompanying blog post.
 

Is it more important to sharpen to tens of thousands of grit sizes than to be able to plane the edge of a door to fit without binding or level two adjacent surfaces in a frame?

 
And he likes to imply that going to higher levels of sharpening takes an ungodly amount of time, leading to OCD behavior.
 

Demonstrators spend an hour developing a perfect edge, find a perfect piece of wood to shave and remove a shaving a full two inches wide and half-a-thou thick and float it in the air in front of an audience struggling to get a shaving of any kind. The question is this. Have we become an obsessing phenomena when it comes to sharpening a plane or chisel?

And this:
 

This group [of woodworkers] concluded early on that they must have a degree of sharpness to their edge tools and that they must be able to achieve a sharp edge if they wanted to indeed work wood with hand tools. They found the information they needed and started sharpening their tools to similar perfected levels without thought that they might be obsessing over achieving the edge without realising that that was indeed what they were doing.  The question then is is it obsessing, or necessary, or practical to go for the so-called “scary-sharp” level of sharpening every time we sharpen our tools. Is it more practical to sharpen to task than to always reach for that surgically-sharp higher-ground cutting edge in pursuit of the perfect sharp edge we are now led to believe to be standard.

 

Is it more practical to sharpen to task than to always reach for that surgically-sharp higher-ground cutting edge in pursuit of the perfect sharp edge we are now led to believe to be standard? Not if it’s a relatively easy thing to do to get to that state of sharpness.

 

I do think he would have a point if it was true that it takes a lot of added effort and time to achieve that sharper edge. But my experience says otherwise. So does yours, if I read your last post correctly. Each additional step of sharpening seems to take less time than the last, which is almost the opposite of a diminishing return. It’s not often that such a situation comes along.

 

And I’ll make an argument for going for the perfect edge every time: for woodworkers who are still figuring out the sharpening thing, it’s probably better to use the same sharpening routine every time rather than varying your sharpening routine (stop at a lower grit for this, and at a higher grit for that) while you’re still learning and developing your process. Once you have a standard routine that you are comfortable with, and are consistently getting good results with, then you can start dropping the last step or two to be more efficient. Although I don’t know what you’re going to do with the whopping two minutes that you save. I mean, that’s not even enough time for a bathroom break. 

[Jim DaddyO]

I like how Paul challenges modern convention.   I recently upgraded from freehand scary sharp, going to 2000 grit sandpaper, to a mk ll jig and 4000 grit water stone (what I end with, I start coarser).  I am not seeing a huge difference except that the angles are more even and nicer with the jig.  As far as cutting, my chisels and planes seem about the same in effectiveness.  I often wonder about new modern standards we have, there was so much made, from Shaker to Chippendale, with tools and sharpening processes that sometimes would get laughed at today.

[G S Haydon]

It is forums like this, and all the others, where beliefs about sharpening are created, fostered and believed. As if there are magic grit numbers that ensure a sharp edge. Consequently, most amateurs come to believe that they must have a 1000/5000/8000 set up to achieve a sharp edge.

 

It's sad if that's the case, FWIW this is probably the only in depth sharpening discussion this forum has had since February that I'm aware of. How about a quick poll?

 

How did you discover your sharpening medium and method?

 

A: Demonstrations by other woodworkers

 

B: Advertising

 

C: Forums

 

D: Family

 

E: Apprentice

 

F: Reference Books

 

 

better outcome than fads. 

 

 

 What are the fads? 

 

 

 get to know your equipment, understand what works, and do it until it is second nature

 

Now if the video had more of that 

 

 

 Amateur woodworkers (like myself) miss out on the training of the days of olde.

 

 

It's not held you back Derek, you seem very good at what you do. The freedom of being an amateur gives you room to experiment in ways professionals don't. Every "pro" I know has never debated about this subject (maybe that says more about the pros I know), too busy working out how your going to make the next project. 

[G S Haydon]

 sharpening processes that sometimes would get laughed at today.

 

This should never be the case, judge someone by the quality of the work not by the quality of the sharpening system.

[Dan S]

How did you discover your sharpening medium and method?

 

A: Demonstrations by other woodworkers

 

B: Advertising

 

C: Forums

 

D: Family

 

E: Apprentice

 

F: Reference Books

C, F and a little A for me.

 

 

What are the fads?

 

depending on who you ask, honing guides are a fad, and you're note a real man/woodworker if you can't freehand hone.

[G S Haydon]

 

 

 

 

depending on who you ask, honing guides are a fad, and you're note a real man/woodworker if you can't freehand hone.

 Not a fad Dan IMO . The Eclipse style guide has been around quite a long time and has served many people well. I might of had some fun about freehand honing but really whatever works. I can see merit in guides and if they make your woodworking easier then why not?

[CessnaPilotBarry]

depending on who you ask, honing guides are a fad, and you're note a real man/woodworker if you can't freehand hone.

 

True!   I'm proud to be a wuss, using what works for me...    

 

I've gotten my guide setting so automatic and brainless. I see the repeatability gained by the 10 seconds spent mounting and dismounting as a time savings over freehand, which I actually know how to do...  I'm sharpening for less time, because the edge is landing exactly where it should, every time.

[Dan S]

Not a fad Dan IMO . The Eclipse style guide has been around quite a long time and has served may people well. I might of had some fun about freehand honing but really whatever works. I can see merit in guides and if they make your woodworking easier then why not?

O, I'm not saying it is, but I have been called names before, for suggesting to a newbie that he use a honing guide.

[CessnaPilotBarry]

How did you discover your sharpening medium and method?

 

A: Demonstrations by other woodworkers

 

B: Advertising

 

C: Forums

 

D: Family

 

E: Apprentice

 

F: Reference Books

 

A (hands-on training) + F...

 

I'll also admit that I've changed along the way as I discovered new methods.   For example...  I started with several guides, then learned to hollow grind and freehand hone.  I went back to a cheap side clamp guide after being shown the simple shop-made angle setter demo'd by LN and others. 

 

The jig is so fast and accurate to set, far less metal needs to be removed to get back to super sharp, so honing is done in seconds.  Unless I drop the tool on concrete, I NEVER grind any more. 

[mikem]

What I have found is that there is no one right way to sharpen, and agree with others have said, once you find a way that works for you stick with it.  At WIA 2012 Frank Klausz sat down with a group of us eating lunch.  He was mentioning how he had in the past sharpened chisels on the concrete floor!  I have heard stories of people working on job sites and using concrete blocks to sharpen as well.  So it is very reasonable that 250 grit is sufficient to get an edge that is sharp enough.

 

My sharpening routine is I sharpen up to 8000 grit, as that is the highest grit I own.  It is on a 4000/8000 grit norton stone.  For lower grits, while I use sand paper on a granite block.  I want to get a 1000/250 grit norton stone as well.  I flatten the stone I have with low grit sand paper on the granite block.  I do have a cheap honing gauge that I no longer use.  I also have a 6" grinder with the original grinding wheels with a wolverine jig on it.  This is mostly for lathe tools but works well if I need to regrind an edge on a blade.

 

I got started sharpening by reading forums, discussion in the chat room, watching youtube videos, watching demos in person.  But mostly, I learned it just by jumping in and started sharpening.  I started out with my old chisel set and some old plane irons.  I did ruin one plane iron on the grinder in the process, but learned from the mistakes I made on it.

 

You can ask 200 woodworkers how to sharpen and you can get 1000 different answers.