wtnhighlander Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 I used some TB III to glue up some cutting board blanks last week. During the night, the temperature in my shop dropped to low 30s F, maybe below freezing. I noticed the squeeze-out is chalky looking. Is there a good chance my joints will fail? Is this likely from the cold, or maybe I have a bad bottle of glue? Opinions, anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) Sorry to be the bearer of bad news:Chalk TemperatureWhen glue dries, the loss of water pulls the adhesive particles together with enough force to form a continuous film. If the drying temperature is below a critical point, water evaporation is not sufficient to pull the particles together, leaving them in the joint. The dried film in the joint will appear whiter than normal. This is known as "chalking" and the critical temperature is the "chalk temperature." When chalking occurs, the glued joint loses strength and could result in a failed bond.ref: http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/LiteraturePDFs/FF683_GlueGuideTB.sflb.ashx Edited November 27, 2015 by LBussy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treeslayer Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 highlander, I've had the same thing happen with TBII a while back, attributed it to frozen glue squeeze out, no problem with the joint failing. i do keep my glue supply in the house in the winter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) I’m not that familiar with PVAs, but I do know ‘chalky’ is bad -- the chalk temp of TB3 is around 45F... I don’t know about your shop, but just because the atmospheric temp drops below freezing, doesn’t mean that the shop’s ambient does the same... Indeed, my garage remains several degrees above atmospheric as long as the doors remain closed... Because the surface squeeze-out is chalky, doesn't necessarily mean that the adhesive in the joint is also bad... If the temps were above chalking for a couple hrs in the joints, you’re probably AOK...If this was my problem, I’d call the 800-number tech support line and ask the experts... Good luck. BTW: I use 105/206 for cutting boards... While TB3 is water resistant, it's not waterproof... Time is too valuable to risk a crack because some careless user leaves it on a wet counter top overnight... Edited November 27, 2015 by hhh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 You may get lucky if the glue in the joint was sufficiently cured prior to the freezing. Even then, the joint most certainly will not be as strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) ==>the joint most certainly will not be as strong.It'll be interesting to see a follow-up on this. I suspect joint chalk/strength time course won't be linear, but some sort of asymptotic function... A couple of hours above chalk may gain him 80% strength... If you call tech support, it's be a good question to ask... BTW: folks always talk about freezing and PVAs -- the chalk temp for just about all of them is around 50F-55F... TB3 happens to be a few degrees lower... This may save the cutting boards. Edited November 27, 2015 by hhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 If I had a BUNCH of them I would test a joint to failure and see. If it fails easily then you have a good surface to clean up and re-glue. If it does not you wasted a good joint for significant piece of mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapid Roger Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 BTW: I use 105/206 for cutting boards... While TB3 is water resistant, it's not waterproof... Time is too valuable to risk a crack because some careless user leaves it on a wet counter top overnight...My Titebond II (2) states it is "WEATHERPROOF" and has "Excellent water-resistance" but, my TBIII (3) states it is "WATERPROOF".Are they lying to me? I've used it on several cutting boards and some outdoor items and never had a problem in 10 years. Rog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) ==>Are they lying to me?Yes. It's in the fine print... It's 'waterproof' as tested against a particular ANSI protocol (immersion time/temp/stress)... I believe Franklin has qualified the 'waterproof' language and now states compliance with the protocol. It may say 'waterproof' on the bottle, but I bet there's a reference to an ANSI standard.So, it maybe 'waterproof' as defined by that protocol, but not 'waterproof' compared to epoxy... For example, you don't see PVAs used in marine, aviation or exterior structural applications. Edited November 28, 2015 by hhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted November 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 Ok, follow-up time. All the edge-grain slabs I glued up are fine, so far. No evidence of weak joints during the final shaping & sanding process. The one slab intended to be re-cut for end-grain did have a piece come loose, but it appears it was simple a dry joint at the end of the stick. I cross-cut it and glued up an end-grain slab, so far it seems good. Maybe it will be ok. Fortunately, I expect most of these boards to serve decorative purposes only, rather than being daily drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 I’m not that familiar with PVAs, but I do know ‘chalky’ is bad -- the chalk temp of TB3 is around 45F... I don’t know about your shop, but just because the atmospheric temp drops below freezing, doesn’t mean that the shop’s ambient does the same... Indeed, my garage remains several degrees above atmospheric as long as the doors remain closed... Because the surface squeeze-out is chalky, doesn't necessarily mean that the adhesive in the joint is also bad... If the temps were above chalking for a couple hrs in the joints, you’re probably AOK...If this was my problem, I’d call the 800-number tech support line and ask the experts... Good luck. BTW: I use 105/206 for cutting boards... While TB3 is water resistant, it's not waterproof... Time is too valuable to risk a crack because some careless user leaves it on a wet counter top overnight...a good friend of mine is just finishing his PhD at UC Berkley. He just had a paper approved for publishing after two years of pretty intense lab study. The paper is pretty much linking epoxy to all kind of crazy stuff happening in plants. Quite interesting. I asked if he would ever use epoxy with something that could touch food, he said absolutely not.once it actually publishes, I'll post it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 Ross, I bet the glue between the boards did not get below freezing and that you're good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradpotts Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Before I had heat in my shop, the same thing happened to me. My TB3 came out chalky and didn't feel right. I used it anyway and after a few months the joint failed. I ended up throwing the whole gallon away. I am not saying that yours will fail just letting you know about my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted November 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 I'm pretty sure this bottle of glue has never frozen, as I keep it in the house. Just concerned with the glue that was in the joints when the temp dropped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) ==>Before I had heat in my shop, the same thing happened to me. My TB3 came out chalky and didn't feel rightOh yea, if a PVA is chalky or lumpy out of the bottle, toss the glue... I order PVAs in 16oz, write the date on the bottle and toss after a year... Most of my work is LHG, HHG, UF or epoxy, so 16oz of TB2-extend lasts me a year anyway...I know woodworkers that get PVAs in 8oz bottles and toss after each project...Time is more valuable than glue... A failed glue-joint three months down the line is really expensive...BTW: the shelf life of most PVAs is only about 2 years... And I think it does down the more it's exposed to air... So unless you're really busy, a gallon bottle on PVA may not be a wise purchase...==>Just concerned with the glue that was in the joints when the temp dropped.Well, the chalk tempo is 45F... Again, I'd call Franklin's tech support and ask about the time course... I'm not a Polymer Chemist, but I bet it's asymptotic... If ambient's above chalk for an hr or two, you're probably fine... 100% strength, probably not... 80% strength, probably... Edited November 28, 2015 by hhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 My high school shop teacher made us test cutting boards by pushing the un-planed blank off the bench. If it didn't come apart when it hit the floor you could go ahead with planing and sanding the board.When you think about it that is probably the most shock force a cutting board would face in normal use. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyrolan Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 I'm not a Polymer ChemistI'm actually somewhat surprised... To answer the inevitable "what glues does Trip use", I'll quote from earlier this year:What I use:HHG - fast-stick items - ex. no-clamp miters, open-grained woods, antique repairs, hand-hammered veneers, etcLHG - exposed joinery, plugs, splines, open-grained wood, moderatly-complex glue-ups, etcHGs - anywhere squeeze-out would be inevitable and visibleWS 105/205 – general use, exotics/oily woods, outdoor furniture, marine, filling gaps, structural applications, hardware bonding, crappy joinery, etcWS 105/206 – as above, but more complex glue-up (my go-to epoxy)WS 105/207 – defects, knots, punky wood, spalting, bent lams, etcWS 105/209 – very complex glueupsUltraCat PPR – bent lams, veneering where spring back and/or creep is an issue, complex veneer job, etcBetterBond – general veneering where spring back is not an issue, tight grained veneer, etcUnibond – veneering and bent lams where any movement is an issue and/or H2O will Pringle the veneer, longer open time veneer jobsTB Trim and Moldings - shop jigs, fast-grab, no runsCA - small visible repairsEverything else -- whatever PVA’s sitting around, typically TB-II Dark and/or Extend. What I don't use:Poly, TB-III, highly-toxic resin glues, glue-sticks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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