Gary Gilbert Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Hey Guy, I am in starting to fix things up down stairs so I can make more use of it for a small shop area. we thought we would be able to build a shop here but with the size I wanted and resale value in the area. I figured i would just use the basement. so here is my question. since it is unfinished and uninsultated can I get away with just putting up the foam board on the walls to start or do i have to build the whole wall at the same time? I wanted to do it in stages due needing to re wire and move the laundry room? any help would be great thanks. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treeslayer Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 hey gary, foam board is not only flammable but puts out toxic fumes when it is burned, its especially bad in a vertical position like a wall because fire goes up. its a good insulation but it should be properly installed to be safe. i would not leave it exposed in a basement. i think plan B is in order, just my 2 cents worth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 In terms of insulation you can do that, yes. Do you plan to build walls in front of the foam in the future or will just secure the foam with 1x3's directly into the concrete? It will be easier for wiring if you have actual walls. My recommendation is get a company in to spray foam on the concrete and frame in your walls in front of the spray foam. . Here we are not allowed to have exposed spray foam or polystyrene. So if you are doing this with a permit be aware that you probably can't keep the polystyrene or spray foam exposed for a long period of time. Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 My basement stays nice without insulation. Just a thought. Two by two can be shot or screwed into concrete. Polyisocyanurate (sp?) is a good choice for narrow wall locations. If you pre rip polyiso, then install studs as you go, you can ensure tight fit. Just noodling with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 +1 for uninsulated basement walls. I insulated anything above ground for me that is anything that doesn't have concrete. Another good heating measure in a basement is making sure that there aren't any air leaks. You'll lose more heat through a crack where wind blows in than you will through the concrete. Biggest issue in my opinion is making sure that you don't trap moisture between the walls and the concrete. As soon as you trap that moisture there problems occur. For the nice tropical weather you get in NY you should be fairly fine insulated. I have 2 vents in a 750 sq ft basement and it holds about 6-7 degrees lower than what the thermostat is set at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Securing studs to the concrete will give you a crooked wall because concrete walls are almost never straight. Better to frame a stud wall in front of the concrete. Then you have a place to put insulation, wiring, and even run your HVAC ducts to the floor level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Meh, only if you don't pay attention and have no experience. Most guys who build furniture as a hobby are going to properly set the studs with shims. Caution is called for but flat out nay saying is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 You guys must live in pretty warm climates to not require insulation on the basement concrete. Here its now required by code to insulate right down to the floor of the basement, with the exception of the last 12" or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 It is required by code. My house existed before code. As a workspace I don't want a particularly warm space, but heating ducts running through the space do ok. I guess I am just saying it may or may not be worth it. Again, just tossing out ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Another thing Gary, if you go with polystyrene directly on the concrete, be sure you use the proper foam board adhesive. Other construction adhesives can eat right through the polystyrene. Also, make sure you do a grid pattern on the entire back of the sheet ensuring that it is adhered completely from top to bottom to the concrete. Just putting a few blobs and calling it a day will cause convective looping issues. You don't want that..... Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Gilbert Posted February 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 well I have a sewer line that wrap around two wall to my septic tank I had planned on framing in front of them but I wanted to put a foam board agnst the concrete wall I sealed most of the area in the joists with expanding foam and foam board. I have a layout out of what it looks like as of now. http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s221/bouoy/basement-mid-1_zpse3b70bcf.jpg I use a oil boiler for heat in the house i have not run the lines to plumb the basement since it was not finished but I have it plumbed up at the boiler for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 You mentioned resale value, so I assume that means you plan on moving sometime in the future, which means I wouldn't invest any more time and money into the workshop space than necessary. Do some electrical work and get yourself lights and outlets. Set up good DC and air filtration. Start woodworking. If it's a little chilly in the winter, get a space heater or two. Save the time and money for when you buy a home in which you'll spend decades or the rest of your life...that's where you build your dream shop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Gilbert Posted February 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 1 minute ago, Eric. said: You mentioned resale value, so I assume that means you plan on moving sometime in the future, which means I wouldn't invest any more time and money into the workshop space than necessary. Do some electrical work and get yourself lights and outlets. Set up good DC and air filtration. Start woodworking. If it's a little chilly in the winter, get a space heater or two. Save the time and money for when you buy a home in which you'll spend decades or the rest of your life...that's where you build your dream shop. I am behind you on that one. We have had so many issues with the house and changes that need to be made I am worried about not getting back what we put in it. All the bath rooms have to be updated from some blind 70's person so instead of Tile i Will just do my Epoxy floors in there and in the office. I was told we have to change out our whole water system and softer. I don't mind doing the upgrades like curb stuff and around the pool deck cause I get the materials for cost and takes me a weekend to do. but i do need to add some plugs and check th ewiring we are having someone comeby and check that stuff out cause I don't like ele at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Gary Gilbert said: I have a layout out of what it looks like as of now. http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s221/bouoy/basement-mid-1_zpse3b70bcf.jpg Good thing! I was looking for something for my Xmas cards next year: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjeff70 Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Mike Holmes says that the XPS board provides a thermal break so that a vapor barrier is not required. I think spray foam would be a more expensive alternative? As mentioned, this stuff is flammable but should be behind drywall when finished. Also mentioned this does require special adhesive to apply. Use tuck tape to seal the seams and spray foam (fire block) where there are sill plate penetrations. Check local codes. My area does not require a vapor barrier regardless of insulation application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Mike Holmes says that the XPS board provides a thermal break so that a vapor barrier is not required. I think spray foam would be a more expensive alternative? As mentioned, this stuff is flammable but should be behind drywall when finished. Also mentioned this does require special adhesive to apply. Use tuck tape to seal the seams and spray foam (fire block) where there are sill plate penetrations. Check local codes. My area does not require a vapor barrier regardless of insulation application. Well if Mike Holmes said that it only makes me like him even less than i already did. The fact that extruded polystyrene provides a thermal break has nothing to do with it being a vapour diffusion retarder. It has to do with the materials perm rating and not it resistance to heat transfer. 6 mil poly is a great vdr and its resistance to heat transfer is 0. Yes spray foam would be much more expensive but it is a much better product. The way it conforms to inconsistencies and adheres means you will never have convective looping issues. Also, it is not easy to keep the vdr consistent when transitioning from polystyrene on the walls to spray foam at the sill level. On my site, we spray foam the entire basement. Meaning 100% under the slab, up the walls right to under the sheathing of the first floor. Consistent, clean and you never have to worry about mold or moisture problems in your walls. You could also heat your basement with one good fart an hour Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjeff70 Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 28 minutes ago, shaneymack said: Well if Mike Holmes said that it only makes me like him even less than i already did. The fact that extruded polystyrene provides a thermal break has nothing to do with it being a vapour diffusion retarder. It has to do with the materials perm rating and not it resistance to heat transfer. 6 mil poly is a great vdr and its resistance to heat transfer is 0. Yes spray foam would be much more expensive but it is a much better product. The way it conforms to inconsistencies and adheres means you will never have convective looping issues. Also, it is not easy to keep the vdr consistent when transitioning from polystyrene on the walls to spray foam at the sill level. On my site, we spray foam the entire basement. Meaning 100% under the slab, up the walls right to under the sheathing of the first floor. Consistent, clean and you never have to worry about mold or moisture problems in your walls. You could also heat your basement with one good fart an hour Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk He said that if a vapor barrier is used over the XPS then condensation could be trapped between the XPS and vapor barrier. This Is consistent with moisture control. Here's an excerpt from the building science website: 'Moisture Control The greatest benefit to adding 1” of XPS is arguably for moisture control and not thermal control. XPS controls the flow of water vapor from the concrete to the framed wall, from both vapor diffusion through the concrete and capillary wicking up the wall, reducing the relative humidity in the wall cavity. Small amounts of moisture (too small to drain) between the XPS and concrete is irrelevant because neither concrete or XPS is susceptible to moisture issues. The XPS must be well attached to the concrete foundation, and sealed, so air is not able to bypass the XPS insulation.' Maybe back when he said that they were still arguing? http://buildingscience.com/documents/enclosures-that-work/high-r-value-wall-assemblies/high-r-foundation-4-xps-2x4-wood-framed-wall-fiberglass-batt Spray foam is better if he can afford it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Well if Mike Holmes said that it only makes me like him even less than i already did. The fact that extruded polystyrene provides a thermal break has nothing to do with it being a vapour diffusion retarder. It has to do with the materials perm rating and not it resistance to heat transfer. 6 mil poly is a great vdr and its resistance to heat transfer is 0. Yes spray foam would be much more expensive but it is a much better product. The way it conforms to inconsistencies and adheres means you will never have convective looping issues. Also, it is not easy to keep the vdr consistent when transitioning from polystyrene on the walls to spray foam at the sill level. On my site, we spray foam the entire basement. Meaning 100% under the slab, up the walls right to under the sheathing of the first floor. Consistent, clean and you never have to worry about mold or moisture problems in your walls. You could also heat your basement with one good fart an hour Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk He said that if a vapor barrier is used over the XPS then condensation could be trapped between the XPS and vapor barrier. This Is consistent with moisture control. Here's an excerpt from the building science website: 'Moisture Control The greatest benefit to adding 1” of XPS is arguably for moisture control and not thermal control. XPS controls the flow of water vapor from the concrete to the framed wall, from both vapor diffusion through the concrete and capillary wicking up the wall, reducing the relative humidity in the wall cavity. Small amounts of moisture (too small to drain) between the XPS and concrete is irrelevant because neither concrete or XPS is susceptible to moisture issues. The XPS must be well attached to the concrete foundation, and sealed, so air is not able to bypass the XPS insulation.' Maybe back when he said that they were still arguing? http://buildingscience.com/documents/enclosures-that-work/high-r-value-wall-assemblies/high-r-foundation-4-xps-2x4-wood-framed-wall-fiberglass-batt Spray foam is better if he can afford it. I agree fully. Doesnt change anything i said. Not sure you understand what i wrote.... And spray foam is better regardless of whether or not he can afford it. Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Gilbert Posted February 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 I thought I would have to cover it. the foam board i mean. I have used some spray foam in the joists where it meets the concrete. I did look into this stuff. but it's alot of money http://www.roxul.com/products/residential/products/roxul+comfortboard+is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 I thought I would have to cover it. the foam board i mean. I have used some spray foam in the joists where it meets the concrete. I did look into this stuff. but it's alot of money http://www.roxul.com/products/residential/products/roxul+comfortboard+is This is extruded polystyrene Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Gilbert Posted February 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 yeah I used the pink board in a few places but not on concrete walls . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 XPS cannot be used inside living space here. It is used outside the foundation and capped with metal above grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 XPS cannot be used inside living space here. It is used outside the foundation and capped with metal above grade. Wow very interesting. Where do you live? Are you allowed spray foam indoors there? Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat60 Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 They use spray foam in new homes here in Maine..I didnt want to be the first one to say it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 44 minutes ago, shaneymack said: Wow very interesting. Where do you live? Are you allowed spray foam indoors there? Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Northern Indiana. I see a lot of one inch lift against the inside of the sheathing with fiberglass and drywall inside that. Very few are fully foam. As odd as it may be to say XPS is only used as exterior sheathing, ICF is used a bit and that is insulated on both sides. Blown fiber is by far the most used with air infil being targeted by house wraps and coated OSB with taped seams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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