Maple end table

[pghmyn]

I was going to guess at least $350 for the table. I hope you do not get offended by that. But what would have put it into the $550+ range in my eyes would be the addition of a drawer.

Since you're not doing this as a full time job, at least yet , I hope you don't mind me asking, how much time did you put into it? Could you have spent a little less time and came out with almost an identical product? If you were to make this same exact table again, would you subsequently save time due to repeating known processes?

If you were to make this table again, and you know you could cut 2-3 hours off the build time, would you still charge the same?

Don't mean to be intrusive, but I like to hear your thoughts on this along with anyone else who has been doing this for a living.

[Llama]

I'm not offended at all. Truth is, I based that price range on what I have seen.

 

I would think $350 is a very fair and reasonable price. A drawer would bring up the price a bit as you've suggested.

 

I have made a few similar tables, and my process is very well thoughtout, and about as efficient as possible. If I could make the table quicker, I am not sure I would charge less. Because of my efficiency, I get things done quickly. I have to work harder to meet the timeline I set for my self. I don't think it would be right to charge more if I drug my feet.

 

Not intrusive at all. I would also like to hear from people with more experience selling.

[bgreenb]

I have made a few similar tables, and my process is very well thoughtout, and about as efficient as possible. If I could make the table quicker, I am not sure I would charge less. Because of my efficiency, I get things done quickly. I have to work harder to meet the timeline I set for my self. I don't think it would be right to charge more if I drug my feet.

Agree with this. I think being more of a "hobbyist but selling items on the side" (like someone with another full time job who also sells pieces on the side) makes pricing much harder. Whereas a professional who has his shop completely dialed in can use a "shop rate" calculation like Marc suggests and get a fairly standard price, I think it's much harder for a hobbyist to figure that out. Usually a hobbyist doing work on nights and weekends ("here and there") will be less efficient (more time spent "getting in and out of a sub-task", less likely to have production level tools, etc.), so the "shop rate" and "number of hours" ends up being very skewed. I think a better idea of coming at it is to figure out what a equivalent quality piece of furniture "goes for" and charging the same, regardless of how many hours it takes you. That gets at what you are saying above - just because it takes me longer doesn't mean I get to charge more; similarly, if I work particularly quickly that doesn't mean I charge less for the same quality. Of course, answering this question isn't easy - how do you know how much something "goes for"?

One suggestion I have for Marc as an added feature of the guild builds is a discussion, for each build, about approximately how much Marc would charge for the project if he were selling it. He did that for the platform bed, and I found it really informative. I think it would be helpful to those of us who struggle at pricing our work because guild builds are something where we have a very clear understanding of what kind of work and how much goes into the build, so we get a lot of information from Marc's ballpark price. And I do mean "ballpark." I don't need figures to the nearest dollar, just an estimate of around how much he would charge for the piece. Maybe as part of the "closing thoughts" on each guild build? Is that something anyone else would find useful, or are there too many variables to make it useful at all? I know we've had plenty of discussions in the forum here about how to price one's work.

Anyway, sorry for the digression!

[pghmyn]

These discussions are the best part of the forum.

When I have a more efficient shop set up, I want to do some craft fairs as well. Or even maybe some consignment galleries. I don't want to be dedicated to work working in my life. But a good analogy for a hobbyist like me is as such. Every time you go into the shop, it's like entering a college classroom. Your tuition is your tools and all the materials. You can earn grants and learn for free by selling your semester projects. It's an ongoing education

[Chris H]

Mel, another thing that can really help move tables like this, is the availability of a pair.  I have had a tough time moving individual "end table" size tables at several different price points.  Most recently, I did a live edge maple burl table, and I could not move the single for table for anything.  I brought the price down to basically cost, maybe even a loss and it still wasn't moving.  I built a duplicate (as much as a live edge can have a duplicate), and they both sold within a week (as a set).  I ended up getting more for the pair, than I was asking for the individual one (times 2).  I had the price as low as $200 on the individual, I sold the set for $650.

[Llama]

About cost... Should a straight grained plain hard maple table cost the same as the one I made? I mean, the material does cost a bit more, but there is basically the same amount of time involved. However, the end result is miles apart.

Should the flame maple table bring a premium? How much more?

(Just the difference in material cost?)

Just think aloud here.

[G S Haydon]

Just thought I would share my two cents on what its worth. First of all think of yourself as an employee of "Morris Fine Furniture". We then need to find out how much it actually cost "Morris Fine Furniture" to make the item. No big deal on that, a list as follows should cover it.

 

Materials

 

Finishes 

 

Labor - For this kind of situation I would note down the time spent on a note pad/spread sheet. Total up the hours and apply an hourly rate that you feel represents what you as an employee of "Morris Fine Furniture" would like to earn. Most folks could contrast their job wage to work this out.

 

Fixings & Sundries

 

Shop Costs - For the duration of the job such as Lighting, rates (if your in a commercial premises) heating. Don't go too crazy on this one just yet.

 

Total it up and you have what it cost "Morris Fine Furniture" to produce the table.

 

Contrast the "actual cost" with what similar people/businesses are selling their products for and find the difference.

 

If your table cost $175.00 to make and the competition is selling them at $300.00 and you can sell them at $300 your working around the 40% gross profit percentage area which could make it viable should you ever fancy going pro so to speak.

 

If you drop down to the 28%>34% it's then much less viable.

 

The dark arts of branding, marketing, desire can then come into play if you feel your product is very unique. Lie-Nielsen is a great example of quality brand and quality price, the products speak for themselves however the ethos, branding and company values do to.

 

Hope that kinda helps

[..Kev]

I might be doing it all wrong but, I account for the material cost and pay myself an hourly wage when I figure price for an item.  If it doesn't sell, then I'll either dig into my labor cost or sit on it for a while and try again.  Most of my stuff is preordered so I don't usually have to sit on anything.

 

We have a local shop that takes custom items like this on consignment.  The issue with that route is that the consignment is stupid high to the tune of about 40%.  So, if I do place an item there, I always make a pre-trip to see what similar items are selling for and mark mine accordingly.  In this particular store, everything is way over priced so, I usually come out close to my material plus labor.

 

As for "labor cost", that's particular to the individual and the area they live.  I'm just a hobby guy with a day job.  I'd be in the shop doing something anyway so, my hourly can be lower than someone who's trying to do it for a living.

[Llama]

Thanks bud! I am in school for business, but I sometimes forget to apply the principles to my hobby.

Time is one thing I have to keep better track of. I know what the materials cost me. The lighting and such is minimal because I work in an unheated garage, and primarily use hand tools

[Tpt life]

I am on the other side of the fence. I prefer to meet the market price in a piece-rate type of arrangement. My time/wage would run too high at my experience level. I pretty well plan on eating some labor cost.

[pghmyn]

Thanks bud! I am in school for business, but I sometimes forget to apply the principles to my hobby.

Time is one thing I have to keep better track of. I know what the materials cost me. The lighting and such is minimal because I work in an unheated garage, and primarily use hand tools

Minimizing costs whenever you can is always good. Just to throw a wrench in the mix now, would you save more money by using a No. 5 and No. 7 to flatten a face or one/two passes over a jointer? How much time saved would it take to make it worth it for you to buy a power jointer over your preferred hand tool methods?

 

I'm good at asking questions, but not so much at answering

[G S Haydon]

Minimizing costs whenever you can is always good. Just to throw a wrench in the mix now, would you save more money by using a No. 5 and No. 7 to flatten a face or one/two passes over a jointer? How much time saved would it take to make it worth it for you to buy a power jointer over your preferred hand tool methods?

 

I'm good at asking questions, but not so much at answering

A very good point and if you want to put food on the table by doing woodwork of some kind then these questions will always be there. Or alternatively the Hand Tools are your USP and enable a higher price. Minefield!

[Guest]

chris brings up a great point. As a consumer individual pieces dont get me (i mean my wife) excited but a matching end table and coffee table or coffee table and console or two end tables (you get my drift) make it easier for people to figure out how to use it in their homes.

[Llama]

Sam,

Never. Nope! No way I'll have one of those in my shop!

As a hobbyist I certainly have the luxury to do things how I want without regard of how it affects the bottom line.

[Chris H]

Most of the posts about pricing have been based on a process referred to as "Cost Plus" pricing.  This is a sure fire way to poorly price the piece.  Costing and pricing are two completely separate entities.  Your costs should be continually pushed down as far as you are comfortable without sacrificing your quality standards.  Pricing should reflect what the market is willing to pay, regardless of cost to make.  It doesn't matter if it is -10% or 2000% margin.  Once you have established costs and pricing, then you need to evaluate the validity of your business model.  I think most people find its easier to adjust your costs, than to manipulate the market's acceptance of pricing.  Both are possible, but costs are on the operational side of the business, and pricing is on the marketing/sales side.  Most woodworkers have more strength/comfort on the operational side of the business.

 

Cost plus pricing leaves a lot of money on the table, both ways, with product sold too cheap, or not sold at all because pricing (driven by cost) aren't in line with market demands.  Market pricing is much more difficult to zero in on, but it is the best way to run your business, if possible. 

[bgreenb]

...Pricing should reflect what the market is willing to pay, regardless of cost to make...Cost plus pricing leaves a lot of money on the table, both ways, with product sold too cheap, or not sold at all because pricing (driven by cost) aren't in line with market demands.  Market pricing is much more difficult to zero in on, but it is the best way to run your business, if possible.

This is kind of what I was getting at in my post above. The way I was trying to figure out price was seeing what similar quality pieces were going for - easier said than done, but it better reflects the economic reality than some kind of cost calculation. If you get your wood for free and magically build the piece in no time at all, does that mean you should charge less? Similarly on the other end of the spectrum, no matter what you paid for the beautiful figured board and no matter how much time you spent lovingly hand rubbing a french polish, it doesn't matter if nobody is willing to pay your asking price. But how do you go about figuring out what a piece generally "goes for"? That's why I was saying it would be a nice feature of the guild builds to get Marc's input on each build, with him being someone who has built custom furniture for a living in the past.

[Chris H]

... That's why I was saying it would be a nice feature of the guild builds to get Marc's input on each build, with him being someone who has built custom furniture for a living in the past.

It would be great to hear not just from Marc, but from everyone.  However, you wouldn't know that during the build unless it was a contracted job.  Woodworking also has crazy swings regionally in pricing.  Even town to town, at least by me, my pricing can swing.  I have stopped building to inventory, for the most part, but when I was doing craft fairs, there were certain ones that would support much higher asking prices.  

 

I have found custom work fits me best, but that is the hardest to price, because you have to commit before you know what is going into it.  You also have to be conscious to keep your bid competitive, but with a healthy buffer.

[bgreenb]

It would be great to hear not just from Marc, but from everyone.

Agree with this for sure. It might even be nice to have a subforum where people can post a project and an asking price and any other information they want to share (what someone eventually paid for it, etc.) Obviously some people might want to keep that stuff private, which I understand.

 

Woodworking also has crazy swings regionally in pricing.  Even town to town, at least by me, my pricing can swing.  I have stopped building to inventory, for the most part, but when I was doing craft fairs, there were certain ones that would support much higher asking prices.

This is definitely true near me as well. I know a couple of contractors and interior carpenters near me who have admitted to me (after a few beers) that they do "zip code pricing." One even said he has different prices for whether or not the husband is home when he quotes his price. The zip code pricing isn't that surprising, but that one made me shake my head.

[pghmyn]

Ah, I think my fiance just brings out the best in me. I wish you could have all seen the look on my face when I asked my fiance how much she would expect to pay for a set of Mel's tables.

 

She said $60. That is sixty. Six zero.

 

$30 a table.

 

My jaw dropped and I kind of couldn't believe that. Of all the things I said, I faintly asked her the following:

 

"So, you think that these pair of tables that someone spent probably between 10-20 hours total to build (big assumption on my part there) deserves to get $30 per table? Less than $3.00/hour for his hard work and effort put into making something this nice?"

 

I told her that the $30 wouldn't even cover the cost of materials for each table.

 

I was not rude when I explained woodworking in a business sense, as I have no means to offer my expertise. But, I did generalize the process and costs associated as best I could.

[Trip]

==> fiance just brings out the best in me.

 

==> But, I did generalize the process and costs associated as best I could.

 

 

 

Just be careful not to educate too fully --- once your fiance becomes your better-half, scrutiny over hobby-related costs may become an issue

[pghmyn]

==> fiance just brings out the best in me.

 

==> But, I did generalize the process and costs associated as best I could.

 

 

 

Just be careful not to educate too fully --- once your fiance becomes your better-half, scrutiny over hobby-related costs may become an issue

She likes both my hobbies. Fishing and woodworking. For fishing, she wants me to have a big boat so it's safe for the future kids, and plenty of deck space for her. She likes the Ranger boats. So do I

 

For woodworking, she told me this line (word for word), "You should get more of those Green (Festool) tools." I told her, "Well, those are really expensive." And she replied, "Yeah, but they look nice." ---- Uh, win?

[Trip]

==> Well, those are really expensive  .....  Yeah, but they look nice

 

Sounds like a keeper to me...

[Llama]

$30? Yep, disheartened.

[bgreenb]

$30? Yep, disheartened.

Haha, don't be too disheartened. I just asked my wife, and she said $900. I told her it doesn't have a drawer, she said ok maybe a little less. But she said "I see absolute crap night tables at furniture stores for 3-400 with pocket holes and plastic looking tops."

So there ya go.

[pghmyn]

$30? Yep, disheartened.

Hey man, I could feel the pain for you when she said that. I've never made anything as nice as your tables, but they were worth at least more than $30.