Hidden Cost of Entry for Hand Tools?

[Nub Thumb]

I started off with sand paper sharpening as was demonstrated at a LN hand tool event several years ago. My results weren't great, but I chalk that up to the learning curve and my technique being less than satisfactory. I made shavings, just not thin ones. Here's the problem with sand paper, though. Good sand paper is expensive. Not near the price of a stone, but the stone will last, the paper gas to be bought again and again. If you aren't sure if you are going to stick with it, paper might be fine. But if you do think you will, the stones are the better bargain. And the Sigma set from Stu is fantastic and a good deal. If you do decide it's not for you, resale on those stones is way better than dead sand paper.

[Brendon_t]

Sorry for the rant, but I get frustrated when things are made to be more expensive and exclusive than I feel they really need to be.

This is an expensive hobby To start up in. It's also an expensive hobby to maintain. I haven't seen a single response saying you must have five stones that cost $200 a piece or you can't play. There are many ways to get a sharp edge. Some are more economical to start, some require an initial investment but no follow up money.

I really don't see that as being elitist. I see a different strokes for different folks.

[Dan S]

Tell me again how you have to spend a small fortune on stones to get functional sharpness. 

 

 My comments are not about cost in any way, but about the mechanics of sharpening. I've specifically tried to make sure not to recommend any particular product.

 

If Paul stropped the crap out of the blade after he sharpened it to "250 grit" (he normally does), then it's actually sharpened to roughly 16K grit. Stropping puts a very small, highly polished, convex edge on the tip of the blade. honing compound is, a 0.5 micron abrasive, and for reference 0.5 micron is how big most manufactures claim the abrasive particles are in their 15k - 16k stones.

 

In short stopping compound, sub micron loose grit (silicon carbide, or diamond), or high grit stones (of any type), all do the same thing. However, what they cost, how long the abrasive lasts, and how you maintain them varies greatly.

[Dan S]

 

Sorry for the rant, but I get frustrated when things are made to be more expensive and exclusive than I feel they really need to be. 

 

It's not about the Money, it's about the knowledge. I've seen guys that have gone through a few thousand dollars worth of sharpening paraphernalia, and they still can't consistently produce a sharp edge, because they don't understand what they are doing.

[G S Haydon]

I doubt woodworking is alone in having high priced options. I can imagine golf, gaming etc all have their cost but high levels of skill don't come with how big your wallet is. If you have time and willingness to work at it most things can come to you.

 

What's important is that there is clear guidance about getting good results. To that end Paul Seller's online membership is very reasonable and for those wanting a hand tool only approach and that need the guidance it would be money well spent.

 

On an ongoing basis wood, hardware and time become the biggest issues.

[rodger.]

I keep sharpening simple -mk2, a 1000 stone, 8000 stone, and a DMT diasharp 220 plate for flattening. Works beautifully.

[Immortan D]

I have four 8-Inch DMT Dia-Sharps, from coarse to extra extra fine. They do an excellent job, but I think a good starter kit is the DMT W6EFC Three 6-Inch Diamond Whetstone set.

[bushwacked]

Thanks everyone for your responses! I was mainly asking because I have seen it said a lot that you need higher than 1K grit to get smooth cuts. I see now that is not always the answer and it just depends on the scenario really.

 

I have thought about the sand paper route very heavily and still may go with that and grab the MK-II to help with it. Then if I want an upgrade I could keep the MK-II and get stones. I have always been curious how long sandpaper actually lasts though once you hit higher grits like 1K and up. I would think it would eat up that paper decently quick and make having to buy sandpaper regularly an expensive habit as well.

 

Paul has a nice video on sharpening, but it does seem it would take a lot of practice for a beginner to do his free hand technique with any success. I mean when he is talking about here is 30 degrees and move your hand to 20 degrees at the end? I mean damn! That just screams YEARS of practice to get that. I am sure it is a great technique, but for someone to just go out and try, I think would end in failure for most. Uneven sharpening and a mostly dull or even ruined blade until properly sharpened back.

 

 

 

 

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667

 

Just curious what options you grabbed and why ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

I keep sharpening simple -mk2, a 1000 stone, 8000 stone, and a DMT diasharp 220 plate for flattening. Works beautifully.

 

I was thinking this same type setup as well ... not too expensive .. what 1k and 8k stones you got?

 

 

I have four 8-Inch DMT Dia-Sharps, from coarse to extra extra fine. They do an excellent job, but I think a good starter kit is the DMT W6EFC Three 6-Inch Diamond Whetstone set.

 

I cant find the grits on them ... how well do they work?

[Dan S]

Just curious what options you grabbed and why ....

I should give you a little back ground before I tell you what I use.

I started of with scary sharp on a granite surface plate a friend gave me for free. I used grits between 200 and 2000 depending on what i was doing and then I finished of with honing compound on a hard maple plank. when i got tired of switching out sand paper, I picked up 1k, 4k, and 8k Naniwa Superstones. They are decent stones, but they break down fast if you are working on really hard alloys like A2 or the powdered metallurgy stuff.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_407

Iv'e bee slowly switching over the the Sigma power Select II stones. They are designed for the harder steels, but they break down faster, and thus need flattened more often.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_513

right now i have the following

1) 240 grit Sigma Select II for really course work like flattening the back of a chisel or plane blade, or when i want to re-form a bevel and don't want to use the bench grinder.

2) 1000 grit Sigma Select II for general rough work

3) 5000 grit Naniwa Superstone that only really comes out when working on the backs of a chisel/plane

4) 8000 grit Naniwa Superstone that only really comes out when working on the backs of a chisel/plane

4) 13000 grit Sigma Select II for putting the final super sharp micro bevel.

5) 400 grit Atoma diamond stone to flatten my water stones.

since you already have a Tormek, you should use it. All you really need is a honing guide, and a fine grit abrasive to put a super sharp micro bevel on the edge.

a) you could use honing compound on the pull stroke. it would be really cheap but a little slow

you could use lose grit diamond or silicon carbide again on the pull stroke

c) you could use a waterstone. on the push and pull stroke. what stone will depend on what your irons are made out of.

[wtnhighlander]

A note about sandpaper, BW - I find that it holds up well if you don't put too much pressure on the edge during the push stroke. I also just let the surface tension of water hold the paper in place (soak it well!). And last, the wet/dry paper lasts many uses if rinsed after each use, don't let the swarf dry on it.

[Immortan D]

I cant find the grits on them ... how well do they work?

They work very well. DMT has a color coded "grit chart":

 

For grits higher than the "extra fine" you'd do better with non diamond stones. I have a 8-inch dia-sharp (continuous diamond) extra extra fine stone and I seldom use it. It gets easily scratched and it really does not make any difference on the tool sharpness.

 

Keep in mind I'm not a honing purist! I just check sharpness with my finger before using a tool and resharpen if needed. I don't run sharpening and polishing sessions of all my tools at once, not at all.

 

[xxdabroxx]

 

Paul has a nice video on sharpening, but it does seem it would take a lot of practice for a beginner to do his free hand technique with any success. I mean when he is talking about here is 30 degrees and move your hand to 20 degrees at the end? I mean damn! That just screams YEARS of practice to get that. I am sure it is a great technique, but for someone to just go out and try, I think would end in failure for most. Uneven sharpening and a mostly dull or even ruined blade until properly sharpened back.

 

I've been sharpening knives for quite a while now but I have only recently started doing plane irons and chisels.  They are much easier than a knife as you only have one bevel to stay consistent with.  I don't sweat getting a perfect 30 deg angle (may be more important on bevel up planes, but a cutout piece of paper with the proper angle can be used as a check) , I get to about where I think it looks right and run with it.  Seems to work so far for me. 

 

Getting a good sharp edge to me boils down to getting a wire across the full length of the blade.  Once you can feel the edge rolled over all the way across you have a continuous edge with no more dull spots.  If you can feel it rolled over on either side but not the middle you have more to go yet.  It's easier to feel than to explain.  Don't be scared, jump in and try it.  I find that the large flat bevel of a plane iron makes it pretty easy to keep a consistent square edge.  A 1/4" chisel on the other hand is a bit tricky as you have less of a reference surface. 

[rodger.]

Thanks everyone for your responses! I was mainly asking because I have seen it said a lot that you need higher than 1K grit to get smooth cuts. I see now that is not always the answer and it just depends on the scenario really.

 

I have thought about the sand paper route very heavily and still may go with that and grab the MK-II to help with it. Then if I want an upgrade I could keep the MK-II and get stones. I have always been curious how long sandpaper actually lasts though once you hit higher grits like 1K and up. I would think it would eat up that paper decently quick and make having to buy sandpaper regularly an expensive habit as well.

 

Paul has a nice video on sharpening, but it does seem it would take a lot of practice for a beginner to do his free hand technique with any success. I mean when he is talking about here is 30 degrees and move your hand to 20 degrees at the end? I mean damn! That just screams YEARS of practice to get that. I am sure it is a great technique, but for someone to just go out and try, I think would end in failure for most. Uneven sharpening and a mostly dull or even ruined blade until properly sharpened back.

 

 

 

 

 

Just curious what options you grabbed and why ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was thinking this same type setup as well ... not too expensive .. what 1k and 8k stones you got?

 

 

 

I cant find the grits on them ... how well do they work?

I have these

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=67088&cat=1,43072,67175

[SteveM]

I started out with the MKII guide and sandpaper glued to glass. It was a cheap start but I used half of my stash of paper just getting a new set of chisels ready to work. So about a year ago I got a medium grit India stone, black Arkansas stone, and leather strop and started free handing. With the MKII I constantly ripped the sandpaper and my 1/2" chisel slipped a little in the guide without me noticing and now has an angle on it that I have yet to work out. Since starting free handing my sharpening is every bit as good as the MKII gave me and I can be back to work before you've even chocked up your tool into the guide. I thank Bob Rozaieski for his excellent sharpening videos that helped me move away from guides and sandpaper.

 

By the way, the "hidden cost" of power tools is there too. How many saw blades and router bits do you have to buy? How do you keep them sharp?

[Jim DaddyO]

Power tools are no good dull either.  All their blades need to be sharpened (costs money) or replaced (costs more money) too.  Cutting with any power saw that has a dull blade can be frustrating and maybe even downright dangerous.  I got the MKll from Lee Valley with the 2" wide combo stone that comes with it (1000/4000 grt I think) and it does just fine.  I use an old oil stone for the roughing out.  It may not be the best stone out there, but it is false economy to throw it out and get something else.  The last time I sharpened my block plane I took a picture and you can see the reflection of the trees outside the window where I was taking the picture in the bevel of the blade.  That is sharp enough for me.

 

[RichardA]

    Been sharpening to 250 grit for more years than most of you have been alive... I just bought a DMT Duo stone, starts at 350, flip it to 600... Does a nice job, but now I realize that $100 could have bought a few more boards, and 250 grit done right, works just as well.  I don't need to gloat that I have the sharpest blades, my blades do the work, and not show off!

[ColinF]

I use a 360 grit cheap diamond plate from harbor freight, and then polish it out on 2000 grit paper. Not freakishly sharp but still works very well.

[aengland]

I'm the poster child for trying all the different sharpening systems. Oops, don't follow me....

 

I've settled on water stones. They work well, quickly, and deliver dependable, repeatable results. For me, they're flat out faster than oil stones, can handle O1 or A2 or PMV11, etc., and can flatten blade backs (which a Tormek doesn't do so well.

 

I no longer think of the different approaches as better or worse; they are merely preferences. 

 

As to cost, I consumed a lot of sandpaper, along with spray glues and flat substrates. Likewise, oil and water stones need maintaining with flattening plates. Tormeks and grinders require finer stones or replacement stones. And so on goes the dollar trail....

 

I like steps--rough (320 or 400), cutting (800, 1000, or 1200), honing (3000, 4000, or 6000),and polishing (8000, 10000, or 13000). A good friend just does a Chosera 800 followed by a Snow White 8000. We both achieve sharp. He does it faster and less expensively. 

 

Paper leaves grit; oil stones, oily mess; water stones, mud everywhere; grinders, blued tool shafts from overheating; and a Tormek, lots of jigs to buy and a cloogy tray to empty. So, the only machine that does it all is my buddy's knife making machine with about a dozen belts and three different shaping wheels (available for only about $2,200)

 

At some point, we have to decide to enjoy what we have!