My shop overhaul


Cliff

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==>You should have an electrician check your work to make sure it's up to code.

Agreed. I did not look at the box image closely, but now that you mention it --- some things look hinky... And  looking at the photo more closely, I'd have to question the install... If this was a grandfather, maybe. I'd bet it wouldn't pass as a new install... If it was mine, I'd redo it.

 

==>the panel is not to have splices in it.

Allowed for neutral... You'd have to check for hot, I forget... But don't think so. You'd have to ask someone who knew what they were doing, but I think this is is/was termed 'tailing' and permitted to some extent -- but I though it was for grandfathered cases only... And I doubt it would be permitted for every branch.

 

==>1 of your hot conductors is white.

Allowed, but should be clearly marked -- I believe a black stripe is permissible... Maybe need a black wrap of tape... Forget.

 

==>green wire connected to the neutral buss

Believe it depends on on bonding... I forget the marking, but I believe this is allowed -- would have to check... I believe mine is wrapped in green electric tape... Again, I think it depends on main/sub, primary structure -v- outbuilding and how bonding is accomplished. But then again, is that a three wire pull? I can't quite tell... If so, then he's got bigger problems...

Edited by hhh
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agreed on the splices looking funny.  In cook county we don't use romex (rigid metal pipe only) and the electricians always pull enough wire to reach the circuits without the splices.  Not sure if what you did meets code but it certainly looks like a homeowner specia. 

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Well to be honest, if I was strictly adhering to all codes, I'd have gotten a permit, dug 43 inches instead of 20, used three grounding rods instead of one, got an inspection, etc. Oh and then ripped the knob and tube out of my house 3 years ago when I installed a ceiling fan in my office. I'm satisfied that is far safer than what was running out there before. Especially considering that the electrical line from the house to the garage ran just a few inches under a flower bed that we intend to rip out for a patio.

Also just ran those things past him and he said, "Yeah, that's all valid, but it'll work." The point being - as a home owner, you choose to trade off in order to financially be able to afford things. In this case, we worked with the wire we could get the day we bought it, and had to finish things in a very very tight time table. I can always have an electrician bring it up to code when I hire one to rewire my house.

Edited by Cliff
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Well to be honest, if I was strictly adhering to all codes, I'd have gotten a permit, dug 43 inches instead of 20, used three grounding rods instead of one, got an inspection, etc. Oh and then ripped the knob and tube out of my house 3 years ago when I installed a ceiling fan in my office. I'm satisfied that is far safer than what was running out there before. Especially considering that the electrical line from the house to the garage ran just a few inches under a flower bed that we intend to rip out for a patio.

Also just ran those things past him and he said, "Yeah, that's all valid, but it'll work." The point being - as a home owner, you choose to trade off in order to financially be able to afford things. In this case, we worked with the wire we could get the day we bought it, and had to finish things in a very very tight time table. I can always have an electrician bring it up to code when I hire one to rewire my house.

I'd at least run a piece of conduit from where the #6 enters you garage to the box and run the #6 cable through it.   That is a lot of unarmored juice just dangling in your stud bay.   It will take you literally 30 minutes.   And no offense to your friend who is surely a brilliant engineer, he is not a very good electrician.  Most of the code violations people are pointing out (splices, the unprotected #6 cable, etc) would have taken little to no extra time or money to do correctly.     I can understand disregarding code on the trench depth because it saved you a ton of time but some of the other stuff just seems strange.   

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==>In cook county we don't use romex

You aren’t kidding... I spent a brief spell in Lake Forest --- Chicagoland was like another universe for code... Still require copper water source and cast iron sewer pipe? Added a whole new dimension to DIY.

 

==>if I was strictly adhering to all codes, I'd have gotten a permit, dug 43 inches instead of 20, used three grounding rods instead of one, got an inspection, etc.

You don’t necessarily need to rigorously adhere to code to be safe... The one reason to follow code and get the inspection is in case you ever have a problem (read as fire) or go to sell the home. Having the sticker leaves the homeowner’s inspector and/or insurance adjuster no place to go... Mike makes a good point – the panel screams ‘DIY’. Of course, getting an inspection can open a whole can of worms – and that’s the downside... Although knob&tube -- you really should pull that out... Just saying...

 

==>used three grounding rods instead of one

Grounding/bonding is important for several reasons and one of those things that DIY installs invariably get wrong... Aside from safety, it’s important because wonky grounds can dramatically shorten the life of tools... Things have changed over the years and my last service work was a while ago, so YMMV. But off the top of my head: Outbuilding subs need two rods or one rod + water service pipe... The NEC addresses both three and four wire installs, but most (read as 99%) municipalities require 4-wire pulls... The sub's earthing and neutral busses are isolated... BTW: I can't tell from the photo, but is that a three wire pull?

 

==>And no offense to your friend who is surely a brilliant engineer, he is not a very good electrician.

Believe I previously addressed that one.. :)   Again, I can speak for a household full of them... Engineers make lousy electricians... Just because we know how/why something works doesn't mean we can make it work... :)

 

 

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==>In cook county we don't use romex

You aren’t kidding... I spent a brief spell in Lake Forest --- Chicagoland was like another universe for code... Still require copper water source and cast iron sewer pipe? Added a whole new dimension to DIY.

 

==>And no offense to your friend who is surely a brilliant engineer, he is not a very good electrician.

Believe I previously addressed that one.. :)   Again, I can speak for a household full of them... Engineers make lousy electricians... Just because we know how/why something works doesn't mean we can make it work... :)

 

 

 

Yes we still require copper for water supply.  No plastic or PEX type stuff.  

I know some municipalities allow PVC sewer pipe, copper got ridiculously expensive during the housing bubble so I think they capitulated on that point circa 2007.  When my mom and sisters built their houses circa 2002 it was either copper or cast sewer.  My house, circa 1980, is a combination of copper and cast iron.   The City of Chicago dictates most of the building codes, the suburbs in cook county adopt that code and so does lake county (where lake forest is located) and I think dupage.  The more rural counties tend to be like the rest of the country.  

Yeah... I saw your dig on engineers but thought the point was worth reiterating.  My dad is a retired union pipefitter and was a project super on many multi-million dollar jobs.  He had a friendly rivalry with the engineers.  I wouldn't want my dad designing anything nor would I want the engineers trying to make an x-ray weld on a 24" pipe.  

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==>In cook county we don't use romex

You aren’t kidding... I spent a brief spell in Lake Forest --- Chicagoland was like another universe for code... Still require copper water source and cast iron sewer pipe? Added a whole new dimension to DIY.

The whole new dimension often becomes "don't do it" because the codes make it so much more of a hassle and/or learning curve.   Another funny thing is in this new age of Internet learning, good luck learning to do things online in ways that meet Chicagoland codes. :P

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I'd at least run a piece of conduit from where the #6 enters you garage to the box and run the #6 cable through it.   That is a lot of unarmored juice just dangling in your stud bay.   It will take you literally 30 minutes.   And no offense to your friend who is surely a brilliant engineer, he is not a very good electrician.  Most of the code violations people are pointing out (splices, the unprotected #6 cable, etc) would have taken little to no extra time or money to do correctly.     I can understand disregarding code on the trench depth because it saved you a ton of time but some of the other stuff just seems strange.   

Well, here is the thing, I didn't really ask anyone to critique it. I was sharing because that seems to be the point of this community, and now I'm irritated. I get enough irritation from the government regulations I deal with in my daily job. It seems like every time someone makes any sort of post, there has to be one or two people that gotta step in with advice that wasn't asked for. Certainly anyone's right to say what they want, and I welcome anyone to continue to do whatever they please, but I'm not holding any work done as a favor at my house while a guy was literally passing through on a business trip to the standards of a licensed electrician. He did me a favor, its tons safer and more useful than it was 4 days ago and I'm pretty satisfied with that.

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Honestly I did not mean to offend at all and I am happy you are getting some shop space with enough electricity to run your machines.   I went two years with a garage shop that only had two 15 amp duplex outlets, upgrading the service was the one of the happiest days of my life.  

Normally I don't play safety police or code enforcer because the world does not need more fun police.  In this case it is warranted because you said your friend is an engineer, he does tons of this stuff in his spare time and used to do it for a living.  So other people reading this thread might assume it was done correctly.  Now I don't think people should get advice on the internet but that is the world we live in.   If you are happy with it, I guess that it is good enough.  But also keep in mind one day someone else will own your house and maybe assume that white wire is a nuetral and not a hot.

A house I owned was wired by the prior owner, also an engineer.  He had one of the duplex outlets wired to two different breakers.  I have no idea why, but each side of the duplex was on a different breaker.  Well I had assumed I turned power off to the outlet when working on it and got a nice little 110 shock when I touched the other side.  I don't know if that is code or not (I assume not),  and it is my fault for not checking both sides with one of those little voltage detectors.   But it is certainly not normal. 

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What Mike said. I too did not mean to offend. I realize you didn't ask for critique, but my reply was out of concern for your safety. I don't normally jump on this type of thing & thought long & hard about whether to post that reply

There are some real hazards there that can be fixed without too much trouble at this point. The advice you are getting is really, really bad. Please don't get any more from him. I think the worst is the grounding/bonding. That is a sub-panel run from the house, so you need to have 2 hot wires; red & black, a white neutral & a green bonding conductor. In the shop panel, depending on jurisdictions, you may need to drive a ground rod as well. The intent is to provide a low impedance connection between the neutral & ground so if something goes wrong with a tool & the frame comes in contact with a hot wire, the breaker will trip.

Most home centers sell books on basic electrical installation that will give you a good idea about how you should be doing it.

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You’re right, you didn’t ask for critique – we bad...

But please don’t take it the wrong way – folks are just trying to help... Electrics are one of those areas that everyone on the internet is an expert, and yet there are so many bad installs... Folks want you to be safe and the guy who comes along after you to be safe...

You really don’t need a pro for everything – running branches, installing devices, etc is straight forward... But panel installs, grounding/bonding, etc requires more knowledge then can be gleaned from the internet and a pro will usually pay for themselves...

Also, an inspection before you close everything up can save you money in the long run. Leaving that panel the way it is will raise red flags – maybe not now, maybe not for years – but at some point, someone is going to pull the cover and dance will start... Trust me, been there & been on the receiving end of that.... Say you remodel your home and require a permit: the inspection will review the wiring and [most likely] inspect the sub (even if it wasn’t part of the remodel – they’ve done it to me – twice). The threshold for total NEC compliance for a remodel is ridiculously low -- I think somewhere between 20% and 30%, depending. And an inspector can make your life a nightmare at that point... You certainly don’t want that to happen when you go to sell the home (as happened to my dad with his EE/DIY wiring)...

Anyway, folks are trying to provide solid advice – none of what I’ve read so far is off in left field...

 

As a side note, that's why I usually chime-in on inspections for DIY subs... Although important, it's not necessarily a safety thing. It's what happens years down the line when you do a remodel, sell the home, etc... A shop panel can really f*up a kitchen remodel -- been there... It can also impact a home closing... It's the stuff you don't think about years down the line that gets you...

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You really don’t need a pro for everything – running branches, installing devices, etc is straight forward... But panel installs, grounding/bonding, etc requires more knowledge then can be gleaned from the internet and a pro will usually pay for themselves...

Exactly what I did. I paid an electrician to trench wire from the transformer to the building, install the meter socket and panel, and do the proper grounding. After that I did all the rest and got the final electrical and building inspection stickers in my panel. I even got a permit for the heater install (which they didn't inspect). I know it can be a pain but I decided to play by the rules and get all the permits and inspections done. That way insurance or anything else can't come back to haunt me down the road. 

When I had my attic insulation blown in the guy said "You must have ran the electrical yourself". I was like oh crap and asked why. He said "because no contractor would ever run wires this neatly". Felt better after that!

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When I had my attic insulation blown in the guy said "You must have ran the electrical yourself". I was like oh crap and asked why. He said "because no contractor would ever run wires this neatly". Felt better after that!

 

Ha.  Similar thing happened to me when I did all my own piping for a natural gas conversion.  When the inspector learned (over the phone) that I had done it myself he gave me a ton of attitude/hassle, so I was super nervous for the inspection.  When he came to inspect, he looked at it laughed and was like "yup, you're all set."  Of course I have the benefit of not having to make a living doing it, which makes a huge difference, but sometimes a homeowner armed with the right knowledge/information will do a much better job than a pro just because he cares more.

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Cliff, please don't be put off by the things we've posted about the electrical. It was done with the best intentions. Your new shop looks great & I'm looking forward to seeing more about it as you make progress.

Are you going to have to share the space with cars? My shop is a 2 car garage that also houses 2 cars, but at lease my wife's car is a Smart so it only takes up a small corner. It's a pain having to plan around the cars, but the space is sure nice to have.

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Well, here is the thing, I didn't really ask anyone to critique it. I was sharing because that seems to be the point of this community, and now I'm irritated. I get enough irritation from the government regulations I deal with in my daily job. It seems like every time someone makes any sort of post, there has to be one or two people that gotta step in with advice that wasn't asked for. Certainly anyone's right to say what they want, and I welcome anyone to continue to do whatever they please, but I'm not holding any work done as a favor at my house while a guy was literally passing through on a business trip to the standards of a licensed electrician. He did me a favor, its tons safer and more useful than it was 4 days ago and I'm pretty satisfied with that.

Don't let it irritate you. Take from it what you will and in the end do what you want. There may be one thing someone says that you agree with or had overlooked. I know personally, half the time I can give a rats ass about code....but I want it safe! Don't need my house burning down, but could care less if I have proper distance between my outlet spacing. This forum is about sharing information and plenty of times I have walked away with more knowlege from it, even if I didn't follow the advise or agree with it.

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So I know nobody was maliciously being rude or anything, but I'm defensive about my friends. The guy was flying to another city an hour away from me, and got his job to schedule his flight two days earlier so he could spend all Saturday doing this, then Sunday see his parents. We started at 7am, and by the time he was connecting the fuse box, it was 11:30pm. Some of his reasoning is known to me. For instance, the choice of splicing in the fuse box - he mismeasured the wire, ran it, it was too short. It was a pain to run so he just spliced it. I got the same stuff in my house box and it's been up for 100 years, so I'm not concerned. The wire coming in - he just forgot to get conduit (and realized it long after everything closed) to cover it and turns out had discussed it with my stepdad to make sure he knew to get some, didn't discuss it with me cause I'd be like, "not unhooking those wires." And wire color - just as simple as there was no red wire at Lowes. We determined that we are going to get tape and wrap the wires to indicate which is which - I think its likely he didn't put the others exactly where code states cause he just didn't care. And neither did I because I can't think of anything in my home that meets code as it is anyway, and an inspector passed that no problem.

To be honest, where we live, most people consider a lot of code to be retarded and overly protective. I'm prone to agree on some of that. I get this from the standpoint of literally not being able to do any work for the last 4 months due to government red tape. They have to set up rules for everything, whether it makes sense or not. I'm not here to judge it but if it's my house, I'll decide if I care if it's followed or not - which is why I used one grounding rod instead of the city's requirement of 3. After pounding one rod, I returned the others and got my money back. Eff that, know what I mean?

To answer other questions - I am basically done parking cars in the garage. I can't see a way to do woodworking, park car, and have my wife's gardening equipment until she lets me put up a shed. And even then, I imagine I will use that gardening space for a bandsaw, drill press, etc. Things I need and don't have. This is a bummer since the winters aren't great here but that is what remote start is for.

CharlesC - Yup. Boy every day with the interviews that ask "What is dependency injection?"

FYI, after getting upgraded power, I have spent the last week in the a/c playing Xbox One for days straight cause it's too flipping hot outside. Looks like today might be a good day to get more insulation up though - good weather coinciding with payday.

I started hanging the lights, which are meant to be screwed in, not hung. So I had to do some minor surgery on them to get them going. We got one light up, had sweat completely through our clothes and realized how stupid we were since I was going to put a ceiling up and would have to take all six down anyway to do that. So now I'm just plodding onward with insulation and drywall as money and time permits.

 

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We got one light up, had sweat completely through our clothes and realized how stupid we were since I was going to put a ceiling up and would have to take all six down anyway to do that. So now I'm just plodding onward with insulation and drywall as money and time permits.

 

the heat and humidity here (Connecticut) has been ridiculous, too.  My 8 year old has started measuring days by the # of times I come inside to change my shirt.  "Whoa dad, a 3 shirter today, huh?"

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the heat and humidity here (Connecticut) has been ridiculous, too.  My 8 year old has started measuring days by the # of times I come inside to change my shirt.  "Whoa dad, a 3 shirter today, huh?"

Oh yeah I hear ya on that. Even with a fan out there, I'm drenched within 20-30 minutes. I sweat very hard from the top of the head/forehead too. It goes right through the moisture wicking headband and I change it out for a new dry one. I can't wait until I can a/c in there.

Edited by Cliff
sweat not swear
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I would dearly love to banish the cars from the shop garage, but it's just too nice to not have to scrape frost & brush snow of the car at 5:45 on cold, dark, Alberta winter mornings. My wife likes it even more so priority 1 around here is to make sure she always has a parking spot indoors during the winter months.

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Hah I'm lucky. My wife could part in garage next to me before woodworking but wouldn't do it. Too narrow she says. So she just deals with the snow and ice. But she doesn't leave for work til 9. I leave around 4:00-4:30. so I know what you mean. I may find that I can't handle it come winter. 

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I would dearly love to banish the cars from the shop garage, but it's just too nice to not have to scrape frost & brush snow of the car at 5:45 on cold, dark, Alberta winter mornings. My wife likes it even more so priority 1 around here is to make sure she always has a parking spot indoors during the winter months.

Two words: remote start

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