Byrdie Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 23 hours ago, Llama said: The word you're looking for is pandering. It's been awhile since I've been active on this forum and now I remember why. First of all, working with wood is wood working in it's purest sense, not just making furniture or fun, crafty trinkets (like reindeer). One of our most active posters here spends most of his time restoring old houses. Some people prefer to call that "DIY" but I think most of you would hesitate to openly say that Tom is not a woodworker. Far more of my woodworking craft has been used to put windows and doors into buildings, often where they didn't exist before, or to fix old buildings. I've even built an entire window sash from scratch. The fact that I've made a few pieces of furniture isn't what makes me a woodworker. It's that I've taken the time to learn to work with wood, at whatever level, and applied that knowledge to the tools I have and that are available to me. There are more than a few people out there creating wood/craft items with CNC. Are they still woodworkers or just skilled programmers?! Secondly, there is a need for information to be disseminated at all levels of ability. If someone "that woman" is out there sharing her knowledge in a way that empowers others to follow suit, I in no way call that "pandering" and take issue with someone who would. We shouldn't try to make this site, the group, or the craft we practice elitist. The number of people involved in woodworking is shrinking and the demographic is skewing older. We need to encourage others to join, at whatever level, not make them shrink away because the source of information they find useful or compatible to their skill level is one that others may consider "pandering." I don't mean to be casting any aspersions or drawing any lines in the sand. Just to shed light on an issue and to remind others of what the purpose of this forum is. To stay on topic and respond to the original question, I've enjoyed Woodtalk for a long time and often find that the other podcasts out there either refer to it or try to emulate it. If you go back to some of the early Fine Woodworking podcasts you'll hear some of their participants and hosts say that they listened to in while in the workshop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 5 minutes ago, Byrdie said: It's been awhile since I've been active on this forum and now I remember why. At no point have I ever said that she (or any other person that makes that brand of content) is not a woodworker... not sure where that came from... perhaps only serving as a jumping off point to your tirade. What I did say was this movement as a whole decides to stay within a particular skill set, and very rarely breaks into something that requires their viewers to stretch their abilities. Pandering does have a negative connotation, but inherently isn't derogatory. Delivering content that she (and others) know will subscribe to based on their business model is just good practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdie Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Sorry, used your message as a basis for my reply. I did take exception to your pandering comment. It was someone else that called her a "DIYer" implying that DIY is not woodworking. I've heard that sort of statement before, from multiple sources. One that sticks in my mind was from a current member of the Modern Woodworkers' podcast. The feeling is that DIYers are "carpenters" and therefore not "woodworkers." I take exception to that as well. Get a feeling Tom would too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post shaneymack Posted July 17, 2016 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Im a journeyman carpenter by trade and a hobby woodworker. I do not consider them the same at all. Most woodworkers couldn't build a house and most carpenters couldnt build a maloof rocker. Not sure what is offensive. Different trades. And to answer your question about CNC. If someones sole skill is programming a CNC to cut something i do not consider them a woodworker. They are a programmer or artistic or something but not a woodworker. Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, Byrdie said: Sorry, used your message as a basis for my reply. I did take exception to your pandering comment. It was someone else that called her a "DIYer" implying that DIY is not woodworking. I've heard that sort of statement before, from multiple sources. One that sticks in my mind was from a current member of the Modern Woodworkers' podcast. The feeling is that DIYers are "carpenters" and therefore not "woodworkers." I take exception to that as well. Get a feeling Tom would too. I would never say that a "diyer" isn't a woodworker. We all started somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 I would suggest that making ANYTHING from wood, and doing it well, makes one a "woodworker", no matter what tools are used. Doing a project "well" implies an understanding of the medium being worked. Beginner level "well" and master level "well" are seperated mostly by experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Personally, I get more inspired by people chasing excellence. Yes, Tom is primarily carpenter and all around home restorer, but he pursues excellence in everything he does. I have never seen a home builder make their own cypress shingles or hand plane panels for a shutter. Tom does that He is in a league of his own. Most podcasters/youtubers are pursuing mediocrity at best. That is ok, for them, but I have no interest in watching it. If want an example of pandering, check out the "krenov" cabinet in the current issue of wood magazine. Yes it has some Krenov features but it skips over all the little touches that take something from "mediocre" to "good". There are no sculpted legs. the carcase is mostly plywood. There is literally no handwork. Wood is clearly pandering to a skill level, which is a shame because it would not take much to elevate that cabinet from "mediocre" to "good." It doesn't offend me that they choose to be a C student, but I have no interest in building that cabinet. While I am a furniture maker more than a homebuilder, I'd rather read about Tom making cypress shingles than watch a C student woodworker podcast. I can learn things from Tom's posts that relate to my furniture making. I can't learn anything from watching a podcaster pocket screw construction lumber. Mediocre: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 13 hours ago, Byrdie said: Sorry, used your message as a basis for my reply. I did take exception to your pandering comment. It was someone else that called her a "DIYer" implying that DIY is not woodworking. I've heard that sort of statement before, from multiple sources. One that sticks in my mind was from a current member of the Modern Woodworkers' podcast. The feeling is that DIYers are "carpenters" and therefore not "woodworkers." I take exception to that as well. Get a feeling Tom would too. I personally don't really care to define words so that everyone is satisfied by the definition. This microdefining is insane. One persons woodworker is another person's DIYer. Neither are negative, it's just how that person chooses to define it. I run into this all the time in the business world too, people ask me in interviews if I'm a senior dev - to which I learned the only response is "That depends on how you define it. To my current job, yes. To you - maybe not." I ultimately do not give a damn how anyone defines me as a person or woodworker. And I don't see why anyone would care whether we classify Tom or April or anyone anywhere a woodworker or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Mike. said: I get more inspired by people chasing excellence. Exactly! I have never understood people that simply settle for a certain level of work. The old adage "Anything worth doing is worth doing well" applies here. I am a great example of that... I make mistakes on nearly everything I make, but I learn from them and like your signature says, I will build it better next time. There is none of that with the current offerings. Pocket holes have their place, but watching the guys on TV nail and screw everything together and call it an heirloom makes me cringe. The same reason I canceled my Wood magazine subscription is the same reason I don't listen to or watch the current crop of youtube woodworkers. And in saying so, is staying on topic of the OP. I'll put it another way. If you are in this hobby to simply make things to populate your house with and don't care about stretching your skills then go for it. Some of the things she and the others make look ok. But, if you are in this to learn something greater than the value of a poorly placed pocket screw, then by all means tune into the aforementioned offerings. 13 hours ago, Byrdie said: Sorry, used your message as a basis for my reply. I did take exception to your pandering comment. It was someone else that called her a "DIYer" implying that DIY is not woodworking. I've heard that sort of statement before, from multiple sources. One that sticks in my mind was from a current member of the Modern Woodworkers' podcast. The feeling is that DIYers are "carpenters" and therefore not "woodworkers." I take exception to that as well. Get a feeling Tom would too. You are projecting... Getting irritated because you feel as though someone implied something and bringing it up to further your agenda has no place here. I would suggest that if you were here more often you would have known that we as a group don't say those things with negative intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h3nry Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Mike. said: I can't learn anything from watching a podcaster pocket screw construction lumber. Maybe you can't, but there's literally millions who can. And the more of them who do, the better. None of us got to enroll in woodwork 201 before passing woodwork 101 - so there need to be more 101 teachers than 201 teachers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 8 minutes ago, h3nry said: Maybe you can't, but there's literally millions who can. And the more of them who do, the better. None of us got to enroll in woodwork 201 before passing woodwork 101 - so there need to be more 101 teachers than 201 teachers. And like said, I am ok with that. You get what you pay for in life, which is why I pay for old episodes of Woodworks and have a FWW online membership. I even donated to mere mortals back when he was still making furniture and using real joinery. I actually think Steve is a talented designer, but he has taken the whole "populist and paint" thing too far for me, so I stopped watching him and don't donate anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkinneb Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 12 minutes ago, h3nry said: Maybe you can't, but there's literally millions who can. And the more of them who do, the better. None of us got to enroll in woodwork 201 before passing woodwork 101 - so there need to be more 101 teachers than 201 teachers. Nicely said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Eric. Posted July 17, 2016 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 I don't wanna get in the weeds in this thread (so I should just keep my mouth shut, eh? ) but I just have to add... Why is "elitist" a bad word? To me it just implies a group of people who are the best at something, or at least aspire to be the best. Major league baseball players are elite baseball players. Mozart and Beethoven were elite composers. Krenov, Maloof, Nakashima...they were elite studio furniture makers. Please...lump me in with these people rather than those who half-ass everything they do. And I think that's why people who pursue the finest work they're capable of get their panties in a twist over the DIY movement...because those people are only interested in a means to an end - the fastest, cheapest, easiest way to fill a need - while fine woodworkers invest as much in the journey as they do the end product. It's about pride, that's all. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Good points, Eric. In my mind, though, "elite" is actually top of the field, while "elitists" just think they are better than everyone else. I'll be happy to lump you in with "elite", not so much "elitist". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 1 hour ago, wtnhighlander said: Good points, Eric. In my mind, though, "elite" is actually top of the field, while "elitists" just think they are better than everyone else. I'll be happy to lump you in with "elite", not so much "elitist". Yeah that's true Ross, but it's bordering on semantics. Someone who talks a big game but can't personally deliver is just a poser and a snob. I'm talking about people who simply make the distinction between those who try to do their best work and those who sleepwalk through life. They're not necessarily elitist because they make this distinction, they just find mediocrity - and white bread people in general - annoying. That's me anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Eric. said: Yeah that's true Ross, but it's bordering on semantics. Someone who talks a big game but can't personally deliver is just a poser and a snob. I'm talking about people who simply make the distinction between those who try to do their best work and those who sleepwalk through life. They're not necessarily elitist because they make this distinction, they just find mediocrity - and white bread people in general - annoying. That's me anyway. And I don't think necessarily all diy people aren't elite. For instance, the guy that diy'd my kitchen before me put in a dishwasher. Doing that destroyed the structural integrity of the cabinets so that the entire face frame was falling off. An elite diy would have recognized that and tried to do something better. It took me about 20 minutes to cut and plane some 2x4's as bracing for the cabinet so that it will not fall to pieces. I certainly didn't have to be a woodworker, just someone who cares enough to try and do the right thing. If that makes me elitest then well.. screw everyone that isn't. I know that "elitest" attitude is one reason I excel at my job. Arrogance may come with that or it may not. It often does for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 And I don't think necessarily all diy people aren't elite. For instance, the guy that diy'd my kitchen before me put in a dishwasher. Doing that destroyed the structural integrity of the cabinets so that the entire face frame was falling off. An elite diy would have recognized that and tried to do something better. It took me about 20 minutes to cut and plane some 2x4's as bracing for the cabinet so that it will not fall to pieces. I certainly didn't have to be a woodworker, just someone who cares enough to try and do the right thing. If that makes me elitest then well.. screw everyone that isn't. I know that "elitest" attitude is one reason I excel at my job. Arrogance may come with that or it may not. It often does for me. Diyed your kitchen?? What the heck does that even mean? Isn't diy a homeowner doing something themselves? Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 15 minutes ago, shaneymack said: Diyed your kitchen?? What the heck does that even mean? Isn't diy a homeowner doing something themselves? Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk cliff and I are from the same part of America so we speak the same language. He is referring to a prior owner of his home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Just now, shaneymack said: Diyed your kitchen?? What the heck does that even mean? Isn't diy a homeowner doing something themselves? Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk I guess he meant the previous homeowner of his house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Oh. Never used this term or heard anyone use it. Ive seen it mentioned on some hgtv shows. I thought he was referring to the contractor. So this term still means 'do it yourself' correct? Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Just now, shaneymack said: Oh. Never used this term or heard anyone use it. Ive seen it mentioned on some hgtv shows. I thought he was referring to the contractor. So this term still means 'do it yourself' correct? Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Yep. Basically being a jack-of-all-trades for yourself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 Take a hint from the IQ thread. The majority of DIY will not be great because it is usually about cost savings. When I DIY my siding, framing, roofing, electrical, plumbing, etc., it turns out above average. When I DIY my drywall, cabinets, tile, it turns out above average for DIY but quite below average in general. This makes the generalization around DIY negative once you get beyond most crafts. Most people are only good at a few things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 6 hours ago, Mike. said: cliff and I are from the same part of America so we speak the same language. He is referring to a prior owner of his home. Heh. Ya. This man speaks true. 6 hours ago, shaneymack said: Oh. Never used this term or heard anyone use it. Ive seen it mentioned on some hgtv shows. I thought he was referring to the contractor. So this term still means 'do it yourself' correct? Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Still do it yourself. He "diyed" or "diy'd" the entire house. And it's caused massive problems for us. 5 hours ago, C Shaffer said: Take a hint from the IQ thread. The majority of DIY will not be great because it is usually about cost savings. When I DIY my siding, framing, roofing, electrical, plumbing, etc., it turns out above average. When I DIY my drywall, cabinets, tile, it turns out above average for DIY but quite below average in general. This makes the generalization around DIY negative once you get beyond most crafts. Most people are only good at a few things. For us it's definitely about cost savings, and also about me wanting to make counters. But we're really trying our best to be detail oriented and do it at a level that is above your common diyer type. Sometimes we succeed, other times we don't. I'll never claim to be as good as a pro, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, Cliff said: Still do it yourself. He "diyed" or "diy'd" the entire house. And it's caused massive problems for us. Yeah I know how that goes. Speaking of plumb...the previous owner of my house not only didn't know what it was called, he didn't even know it was a consideration at all when building a wall. I had to rip out 3/4 of the work he did in the basement, and his stupid little deck he built in the backyard. Thanks for the extra work, guy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryside Workshop Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 Will be travelling and am wondering if there are any good woodworking podcasts that yo Thanx.u all could recommend. Listen to Woodshop 101 Podcast. Drew Short, Sam Raimondi, & myself record weekly. It isn't to the level of Woodtalk but we are aiming at people interested in the less advanced stages of woodworking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.