Brendon_t Posted July 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Maybe I should change the title to, who hates cnc machines? Also have to agree, crock pot pizza flavored cheeseburger can't exist without the crock pot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdabroxx Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 It is of course impossible to have a discussion about cncs without someone who has never used one saying it isn't real woodworking. It doesn't really take any skill to use a table saw. It just makes that perfectly straight and square cut that you couldn't do with a hand saw and all you have to do is stand there and feed the wood through it. So I guess using a table saw isn't real woodworking. Don't even get me started on jointers and planers. If you have a planer you aren't a real woodworker. If you aren't milling you own rough stock you aren't a real woodworker. If you use pocket holes you aren't a real woodworker. If you use plywood you aren't a real woodworker. Whatever you are doing somebody is more woodworking-y than you. A cnc is just a router and a template where the template happens to be in the computer. It doesn't do anything without you telling it what to do. It's like having an idiot savant shop helper who can do EXACTLY what you tell them to do but has zero ability to determine on their own whether what you told them to do makes any freaking sense. If you told them to make a 4" deep mortise, 1" long in that 1.5" thick stock they will happily put a mortise right through the stock into the workbench without batting an eye or especially asking if you're sure about that. Think about how sure you need to be that you have everything right before you hit that start button if you are running half a dozen operations sequentially. At the end of the day it's about translating an idea into a real object. How you get there is up to you. Can't argue with that! haha. Ok I'm really only talking about the people who use no other form on joinery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderingturtle Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 You should get out more You should learn the value of slow cooking. Like anything else it is simply a tool, used correctly any tool is useful in making wonderful things. For maintaining a low even simmer a crockpot is a wonderful tool, and when used for that it will produce good results. Using it to do something it is not good for is where you run into problems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 You should learn the value of slow cooking. Like anything else it is simply a tool, used correctly any tool is useful in making wonderful things. For maintaining a low even simmer a crockpot is a wonderful tool, and when used for that it will produce good results. Using it to do something it is not good for is where you run into problems. Ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barron Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I am looking hard at the xcarve. I can see a number of uses that will add to my wood working. One example, customized panel for lids on my small boxes. It's one of those things that looks simple, but requires its own skill set to really take advantage of the tool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Someone mentioned that the cnc would take the guesswork / learning curve out of producing complex or intricate parts. I beg to differ - the learning curve just moves to the software side. You still won't be comfortable and competent using the tool until you go through the learning process. But then, as Turtle said, its just another tool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I'll never understand why some say that using a CNC is not real woodworking, but using a table saw, jointer, planer or other power tool is. Where do you draw the line? That argument can be taken all the way back to the stone age. Seems that every time a new technology emerges, some will say it's cheating while others will embrace the possibilities. CNC is no longer new, but affordable CNC to a hobbyist is. I've been a hobbyist woodworker for 40+ years. I've been in the CNC industry for about 30. I've sold to, trained and worked with hundreds of CNC programmers and operators. Some are capable of doing only what I taught them 10 years later because that's all that was expected of them. Others have latched onto the technology and never looked in the rearview mirror - their work would blow you away. This guy. Almost everything he touches has been across a CNC in large part. There is an old logic that still lingers in lots of people's minds about CNC - that is, that they're only good for mass production. On the contrary, the software today is so much easier to use and the machines so much cheaper that many people buy them for prototyping. Here's a I did as a demo to show how one CAD/CAM package could be used for wood applications. I am not a carver and will never be. It wears my hands out, not to mention my patience. Everything, including the texture on the legs of this stool was done entirely on a CNC router and the software is infinitely changeable to create different effects. The router opened up new possibilities for me. I think it's fantastic that CNC has become so affordable. I'm eager to see what will come out of the minds of so many new users. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Micks, that is an amazing stool. Was the joinery done with a matching rabbit and round over set? I would love to make a stool this beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtwood Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Drives me crazy though that these guys get so much free stuff. It's pretty amazing how many machines Inventables has sent out. Last year they were pretty select about it. This year it's like if you want one of these things then start a channel and they will send you one before you get your first video out. Not even close to that, but it kind of feels like it though. It's a huge amount of work to put out content on a regular basis and the ad revenue from youtube is a pittance. I've been at it for a year and half, I've got about 12k subscribers and put out 1-2 videos a month. Even if the project was something I was going to do anyway shooting video and editing will add a full day's work to the project, if not more, unless it's something super simple. I get about $30 a month from the ads. A "free" tool here and there doesn't really make up the difference. I like that there are so many machines out there amongst the video creators now, but honestly it doesn't seem like very many of them are doing anything with them once they get them assembled. There's a big learning curve and figuring out how it's going to fit into your workflow takes some time though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Krt, I've noticed the same thing. A lot of them finally pull it out and are like " so I've had this for six months so I figured I should do something with it. .." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderingturtle Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 It's pretty amazing how many machines Inventables has sent out. Last year they were pretty select about it. This year it's like if you want one of these things then start a channel and they will send you one before you get your first video out. Not even close to that, but it kind of feels like it though. It's a huge amount of work to put out content on a regular basis and the ad revenue from youtube is a pittance. I've been at it for a year and half, I've got about 12k subscribers and put out 1-2 videos a month. Even if the project was something I was going to do anyway shooting video and editing will add a full day's work to the project, if not more, unless it's something super simple. I get about $30 a month from the ads. A "free" tool here and there doesn't really make up the difference. I like that there are so many machines out there amongst the video creators now, but honestly it doesn't seem like very many of them are doing anything with them once they get them assembled. There's a big learning curve and figuring out how it's going to fit into your workflow takes some time though. That is becuase it is a different skill set and thought process than the forms of woodworking that they are used to working and making videos on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Micks, that is an amazing stool. Was the joinery done with a matching rabbit and round over set? I would love to make a stool this beautiful. Thanks, Brendon. It was a fun project. No, you wouldn't use a rabbet bit in a CNC - nothing with a bearing since the controller is doing the guiding. Where you would use a rabbet bit with a hand-held router, you just use a straight bit (spiral compression in this case) in a CNC. I used a roundover (no bearing) on the inside of the leg corners. The stretchers are walnut with 1" x 1/8" steel epoxied to both sides. Cut the steel on a CNC plasma cutter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrrhode04 Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I would like to have one. People are saying that if you use a CNC then you are manufacturing, I am not really sure that is true. When you use a CNC you still have to create that part. Instead of doing it on your work bench you are doing it in some sort of CAD software. Is a mechanical drafter any less of a drafter because he uses CAD software instead of a drafting board? Is a mechanic any less of a mechanic because he uses air tools instead of hand tools? Are you any less of a woodworker because you use a ROS instead of a sanding block or a table saw instead of a hand saw? It is a new tool and it has its place in some peoples shop. Plus if you really want to be picky everything is manufacturing it is just a matter of how, somethings by machines, some by hand and some by both. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Would this be considered real woodworking? I certainly think so. It was all done on CNC routers. Some of Jerry's work is custom, some of it is mass produced for catalog sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Wood carvers are the more affected by CNC. They now have a lot of competition from people with no woodworking/carving skills. As for regular woodworkers, I agree with krtwood, using CNC is basically the same thing as using templates, only more evolved. Making a template and then using it to cut the final pieces makes you a smarter woodworker, nothing less. On the other hand, you can now download those templates and just "print" them out hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I'll never understand why some say that using a CNC is not real woodworking, but using a table saw, jointer, planer or other power tool is. Where do you draw the line? That argument can be taken all the way back to the stone age. Seems that every time a new technology emerges, some will say it's cheating while others will embrace the possibilities. CNC is no longer new, but affordable CNC to a hobbyist is. I've been a hobbyist woodworker for 40+ years. I've been in the CNC industry for about 30. I've sold to, trained and worked with hundreds of CNC programmers and operators. Some are capable of doing only what I taught them 10 years later because that's all that was expected of them. Others have latched onto the technology and never looked in the rearview mirror - their work would blow you away. This guy. Almost everything he touches has been across a CNC in large part. There is an old logic that still lingers in lots of people's minds about CNC - that is, that they're only good for mass production. On the contrary, the software today is so much easier to use and the machines so much cheaper that many people buy them for prototyping. Here's a I did as a demo to show how one CAD/CAM package could be used for wood applications. I am not a carver and will never be. It wears my hands out, not to mention my patience. Everything, including the texture on the legs of this stool was done entirely on a CNC router and the software is infinitely changeable to create different effects. The router opened up new possibilities for me. I think it's fantastic that CNC has become so affordable. I'm eager to see what will come out of the minds of so many new users. I'll walk the rest of the week with my tail between my legs. I take back the crockpot comment as well. After seeing this stool, I have changed my mind about the cnc. I spoke from lack of experience, as the only times I've seen them used was at Rockler when they were carving out things like The Last Supper, and don't get me wrong, when finished, it was beautiful. Great job on the stool micks, and thanks for the enlightenment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I'll walk the rest of the week with my tail between my legs. I take back the crockpot comment as well. After seeing this stool, I have changed my mind about the cnc. I spoke from lack of experience, as the only times I've seen them used was at Rockler when they were carving out things like The Last Supper, and don't get me wrong, when finished, it was beautiful. Great job on the stool micks, and thanks for the enlightenment. Hey, Coop, since you're in Houston, if you have any interest and a few minutes you might enjoy taking a quick tour of this place. He was a customer of mine when I covered Texas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Thanks micks, Magnolia is about 40 miles NW of Houston. That would be a good morning trip to get out of the office Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trz Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 This is spot on. For some reason we have the need to label ourselves and our work. That guy is a power tool guy, and there's a hand tool guy.. And don't get me started on this hybrid label. It makes me cringe every time I hear it. Sorry Marc.. Unless you are cutting down your own tree, milling it, drying it, and doing everything by hand... You are taking a shortcut. Some may argue that certain hand tools are a shortcut... But those people are crazy and since I don't like labels I can't talk about them. Kevin's comparison of a CNC and a Domino are very good. Yes, the domino does speed things up. Just because it's easy to use doesn't make someone that uses it less of a woodworker. And for the most part, your client doesn't fricken care what tool you used to make their piece. I forget who said it, but in a recent FWW mag, the contributor said that he has never had a client ask how thin his shavings are. So in the end, who are we trying to impress? It should be the client. So as long you're making stuff, and your client is happy... Go for it! I see the same debate over at 'Archerytalk'. You've got the traditionalist"stick and string = hand tool guy, then there's the compound bow guys = power tool guy. Your hybrid woodworker is the dreaded crossbow user and you CNC guys are the God forbid rifle hunters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Don't even get me started on AT... I'm banned everywhere but Mutantville But, the analogy is wrong. AT hosts the Different types of archers who all know they are superior and have to tell you why. There is not a do as you please in that community. It's my way or nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trz Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 It gets pretty heated over there! Especially when Shoulder nuke chimes in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted July 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 No kidding right. N8 makes it a game of seeing how few posts I can make before getting banned again. Gotta love IP hopping alters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattSC Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 Personally I look at this the same way I would look at any tool purchase. As a hobbyist, I'm woodworking to build skills and accomplish projects and enjoy the journey. For instance, I'm not a wood carver but that is something I would like to explore, so I would not get the cnc at this time. However, if I explore wood carving and find it beyond my skill or patience I maybe would purchase the cnc to advance my projects and to add details to a piece I can't do myself. I know the cnc can do more besides engravings that was just an example of my mindset. Also there is the fact is it is cool watching that arm do all that running around on the cnc machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 "Also there is the fact is it is cool watching that arm do all that running around on the cnc machine. " I still feel that way after being in the business for so long. We make a router/knife combination for the POP printing industry that moves at 7000 inches per minute. So much fun to watch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 It's pretty amazing how many machines Inventables has sent out. Last year they were pretty select about it. This year it's like if you want one of these things then start a channel and they will send you one before you get your first video out. Not even close to that, but it kind of feels like it though. It's a huge amount of work to put out content on a regular basis and the ad revenue from youtube is a pittance. I've been at it for a year and half, I've got about 12k subscribers and put out 1-2 videos a month. Even if the project was something I was going to do anyway shooting video and editing will add a full day's work to the project, if not more, unless it's something super simple. I get about $30 a month from the ads. A "free" tool here and there doesn't really make up the difference. I like that there are so many machines out there amongst the video creators now, but honestly it doesn't seem like very many of them are doing anything with them once they get them assembled. There's a big learning curve and figuring out how it's going to fit into your workflow takes some time though. What is your channel? I'll take a look. I follow a ton and am always looking for more because I always learn something new even if its something I've done before. It's not so much that youtube guys get the free tools. It's that .. well take one that I watch, his projects are always interesting and very well engineered. he does things like.. we'll build our own t-track and clamps for this. Then he releases a couple of "build your own router table" videos and if you follow what he does, you gotta lay out about $1500 in materials that he got from Rockler for free. Including this absolutely awesome metal jig that is like a router straight edge on steroids. So obviously now I want that $300+ straight edge jig. I can't buy that. I mean I can, but I really can't. I feel like him being sent all that free stuff took away from what he was, which is the little scrappy woodworker that I think was using home center lumber because I've never seen a jointer/planer. And it's a shame because thats why I tuned into him. I already get my high price point examples from .. well, relevant example - Marc. Though, Marc doesn't always use the easiest method to do his stuff and I appreciate that cause I'm sure I'm at least 2+ years from being able to justify a Domino. So in other words.. it's like I don't want to watch "Woodworking in a perfect environment with all the best tools." Because I don't have those tools, and I'm better off than most because I lack fiscal responsibility. So I can only imagine how the dude feels that picked up everything from craigslist. As for your ad situation - in my opinion youtube needs to get the paid subscription model up fast. I don't know how they plan to do it (but I did read they are going to do it.) I'm hoping for 2 different kinds. One is where I pay youtube lets say.. $10/month and never see an ad before a video. The other is that I go subscribe to your feed for $5/month or whatever. There are only 2 or 3 I'd do that with, but I would do it if their content is worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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