Up-Grading Entry Level Machines~Priorities?

[davewyo]

I'm about to upgrade my major machines (Ye Haw!). Eventually I would like to get an 8" helical head jointer, a 1.75 hp cabinet saw, and a DeWalt 735X planer. It is a big thing for me financially speaking. I'm not likely to be able to afford to swing the next machine upgrade for a year or two.

Currently I have a DeWalt job-site table saw, a Jet combo planer/jointer which I use for my jointer, and a 15+ year old craftsman "lunch-box" planer which has served me well but is starting to make a weird noise that I can hear with my ear protection on.

I'm considering Powermatic tools except for the table saw, which may end up being a SawStop.

So I have several questions I would like your opinions on.

If you had (marginally) working machines in your shop already, which machine would you replace first?

I really want a cabinet TS. I think that would make a significant effect on the quality of my work. But I also see that a nice jointer is the basis for square stock and an absolute must if I want to take my shop up to the next level.

If I get a jointer and my options are 8" Powermatic with helical head cutter or Powermatic jointer with the "parallelogram" feature. I figure I can spend time to set up the jointer if that's the differrence between the dove-tail ways and the parallelogram style but I can't make straight knives cut like a helical head, so the helical should be my priority. Do you agree?

Is a SawStop as good as the Powermatic PM1000? Is the fence on each of those good or do I need to factor in fence replacement costs?

[shaneymack]

If your combo jointer/planer is serving you well, I would definitely get the cabinet saw first. That is a HUGE difference over a jobsite saw. I have powermatic jointer and planer and they are amazing tools. However, for the tablesaw I didn't even look at powermatic. It just didn't make sense to me when Sawstop was equal (or better) quality and had the safety feature. You need to make sure to get the model with the bisemeyer style fence not the crappy fence.

As for the jointer if you want helical, you will not regret it. I don't think it is a 'need' but it is pretty awesome to never have to fiddle with knife changes. Some guys have reported the carbide inserts lasting 5 years. Its also quieter and does a great job on figured wood. I have a byrd head in my jointer and planer and highly recommend it.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

Just double checked, it's the t-glide fence that is the superior fence not the premium. Really weird how they word that.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

[bleedinblue]

I'd upgrade in the same order you most likely bought the machines in the first place, they came in that order for a reason.  I'd bet the TS was the first large machine 95% of us bought.  I'd absolutely upgrade it first.  I started with that Dewalt jobsite saw.  It's great for what it is, but a full sized saw will be much, much better.

[davewyo]

1 hour ago, shaneymack said:

If your combo jointer/planer is serving you well, I would definitely get the cabinet saw first.

As for the jointer if you want helical, you will not regret it....does a great job on figured wood. I have a byrd head in my jointer and planer and highly recommend it.

Just double checked, it's the t-glide fence that is the superior fence not the premium. Really weird how they word that.

Yeah. The combo isn't really working all that great for me as a jointer. I avoid using it if at all possible. At times I just seem to make things worse. That's kind of my quandary. Both my table saw and my jointer are in need of upgrading.

I appreciate your opinions. Do you have the parallelogram thingy on your jointer and do you feel like that has made a difference. If you don't have the para, was getting your jointer set up a reasonable task?

Thanks for the clarification on the fence. I was wondering which was which.

35 minutes ago, bleedinblue said:

I'd upgrade in the same order you most likely bought the machines in the first place, they came in that order for a reason.  I'd bet the TS was the first large machine 95% of us bought.  I'd absolutely upgrade it first.  I started with that Dewalt jobsite saw.  It's great for what it is, but a full sized saw will be much, much better.

Yeah, I see your point, and it's where I'm leaning even though it may stick me with trying to work the combo jointer for a couple more years.

About a year or two ago I started a thread asking what was the biggest game changer in everyone's quest for better results and Vinny replied that his cabinet saw was a real step up. I kind of took that to heart and have been saving for a cabinet saw ever since.

But now that I have $2500 to spend I wonder...

[JosephThomas]

I know for me, my jointer isn't great and has some of the same behavior you alluded to ("sometimes it makes things worse"), so I've almost been annoyed enough to upgrade it at times...but I usually remember that I use other things (like the TS and track saw) pretty much every day that I'm in the shop, so I chose to prioritize spending based on how much I use them and got a better table saw and a track saw instead. 

[knotscott]

A good TS is the heart and soul of most woodshops, and is the tool I use most often.  

Saw Stop offers 4 models with 4 different stock fences, so the discussion about them should be specific to be meaningful.  At 1.75hp and having a full enclosure, I'm assuming you're talking about the PCS model...the stock fence on that is their "Premium" 30" fence, and IMO is not as good as their "T-Glide" fence or the "Accufence" on the PM1000/PM2000/PM64b, which are both good Biese style copies.  Fortunately the SS T-Glide fence is an option for the PCS that I think you'd be wise to go with.  While both are very well built saws, neither the PCS or the PM1000 are quite on the same level as the industrial cabinet saws like the PM2000, Saw Stop ICS, Unisaw, Grizzly G1023RL, G0690, Jet Xacta, or Laguna Platinum, but I do think the PCS is more robust than the PM1000.  Are you limited to 120v?  

Those saws all have good potential for accuracy, but what comes from the factory is fairly random, and setup can make a huge difference.  Assuming precision machining and solid design, accuracy boils down to a number of variables that includes things like bearings, belts, belt tension, pulley roundness, pulley alignment, arbor runout, blade runout, blade quality, fence/blade/splitter alignment, fence straightness, lack of fence deflection at the point near the front of the blade, a stiff flush throat insert, and flat straight stock.  User technique is obviously a factor too.  In the end, blade choice and setup are huge factors in the end performance of the saw.

As far as the other tools...for dimensional lumber, the key is to get wood flat, straight, square, and to a uniform thickness with parallel sides.  I manage to achieve that with an old 6" Grizzly jointer and a Ridgid R4331 planer. I'm sure helical head cutters would be great, but I'm not sure they'd help make stock any more flat, straight, or square, though maybe the setup is easier, and the surface might be a bit smoother (I claim ignorance there!).  I've never really consider a planer or jointer to be finish tools, so I'd guess I'd still be sanding and scraping before applying a finishing even if I upgrade to helical heads.  

 

 

 

 

[wtnhighlander]

Table saw first, for sure. A spinning cutter in a large, flat reference surface is the most versatile machine in the shop.

[..Kev]

Saw first.

I've posted my thoughts on jointers here many times so, won't hash over that.

 

[gee-dub]

I also vote for the saw first; band or table.  I hope I don't stir up the mustard folks . . . You discuss budget concerns and Powermatic in the same breath.  They have some fine tools but, are priced high on several cornerstone items IMHO.  When money matters, shop your tools by tool, not by color.  Several makers have tools that hit the sweet spot in the price to performance ratio.  Of course if matching paint is a priority, and there's something to be said for a good looking shop, rock on .

[Mick S]

I agree on the saw first. I have no regrets whatsoever about going with a Sawstop PCS. Regarding knotscott's advice on how the saw comes from the factory, mine was dead nuts out of the box. I didn't even have to adjust the fence for squareness or perpendicularity. Bolted it on and I could not have adjusted it any better. The 90 and 45 degree stops were right on. 

I will also comment on Sawstop's manual and assembly instructions - they are hands down, nothing else I've ever seen comes close, the best I've ever seen for a machine, and I spent 35 years in the machinery business.

[davewyo]

2 hours ago, knotscott said:

A good TS is the heart and soul of most woodshops, and is the tool I use most often.  

Saw Stop offers 4 models with 4 different stock fences, so the discussion about them should be specific to be meaningful.  At 1.75hp and having a full enclosure, I'm assuming you're talking about the PCS model...the stock fence on that is their "Premium" 30" fence, and IMO is not as good as their "T-Glide" fence or the "Accufence" on the PM1000/PM2000/PM64b, which are both good Biese style copies.  Fortunately the SS T-Glide fence is an option for the PCS that I think you'd be wise to go with.  While both are very well built saws, neither the PCS or the PM1000 are quite on the same level as the industrial cabinet saws like the PM2000, Saw Stop ICS, Unisaw, Grizzly G1023RL, G0690, Jet Xacta, or Laguna Platinum, but I do think the PCS is more robust than the PM1000.  Are you limited to 120v?  

Those saws all have good potential for accuracy, but what comes from the factory is fairly random, and setup can make a huge difference.  Assuming precision machining and solid design, accuracy boils down to a number of variables that includes things like bearings, belts, belt tension, pulley roundness, pulley alignment, arbor runout, blade runout, blade quality, fence/blade/splitter alignment, fence straightness, lack of fence deflection at the point near the front of the blade, a stiff flush throat insert, and flat straight stock.  User technique is obviously a factor too.  In the end, blade choice and setup are huge factors in the end performance of the saw.

As far as other tools...the key is to get wood flat, straight, square, and to a uniform thickness with parallel sides.  I manage to achieve that with an old 6" Grizzly jointer and a Ridgid R4331 planer. I'm sure helical head cutters would be great, but I'm not sure they'd help make stock any more flat, straight, or square, though maybe the setup is easier, and the surface might be a bit smoother (I claim ignorance there!).  I've never really consider a planer or jointer to be finish tools, so I'd guess I'd still be sanding and scraping before applying a finishing even if I upgrade to helical heads.  

Excellent feedback Scott.

As with others, the table saw is the machine I run the most. It is certainly the centerpiece in my workshop.

I have a 240v outlet in the shop.

1 hour ago, wtnhighlander said:

Table saw first, for sure. A spinning cutter in a large, flat reference surface is the most versatile machine in the shop.

Thanks Ross. I think that's the way I'm going.

[Pwk5017]

I like these two if they are close enough:

https://wyoming.craigslist.org/tls/5653560633.html   Loved this saw when i had it. guy is waayyyyyy too much for $750, and needs to be brought back down to reality. I paid $250 for mine, added PALs, link belt, new big stop switch, and sold it for $400.

https://wyoming.craigslist.org/tls/5659163489.html  Not PM's finest offering, but it's cast iron, belt drive, and bies fence.

 

I might be in the minority here, but an awesome sawstop wont do you much good if your jointer and planer cant hold up their end of the bargain. $2500 is enough money to get you adequately performing machines. Dont discount the fact that you can sell your current equipment for atleast a couple hundred. I would rather have a functioning and tuned 6" jointer, dw735, and contractor saw instead of a brand new sawstop with crap planer and even worse jointer. I would skip the byrd head if you are tight on funds. 

[Mick S]

2 minutes ago, Pwk5017 said:

I might be in the minority here, but an awesome sawstop wont do you much good if your jointer and planer cant hold up their end of the bargain. $2500 is enough money to get you adequately performing machines. Dont discount the fact that you can sell your current equipment for atleast a couple hundred. I would rather have a functioning and tuned 6" jointer, dw735, and contractor saw instead of a brand new sawstop with crap planer and even worse jointer. I would skip the byrd head if you are tight on funds. 

I think you make a valid point, but a nice 6" jointer can be picked up on CL almost any time for not big bucks. You could almost look at it as renting it for a few years, because if you buy it right you can get almost what you pay for it when you sell it to upgrade.

For most of us a Sawstop PCS is a lifetime tablesaw. 

[Llama]

Cheyenne is a haul from Jackson! And who in their right mind lives in Cheyenne? 

[..Kev]

2 minutes ago, Llama said:

Cheyenne is a haul from Jackson! And who in their right mind lives in Cheyenne? 

Mel's wife

 

[Llama]

Just now, TIODS said:

Mel's wife

I mean, besides being contractually obligated?

[davewyo]

26 minutes ago, Pwk5017 said:

I like these two if they are close enough:

https://wyoming.craigslist.org/tls/5653560633.html   Loved this saw when i had it. guy is waayyyyyy too much for $750, and needs to be brought back down to reality. I paid $250 for mine, added PALs, link belt, new big stop switch, and sold it for $400.

https://wyoming.craigslist.org/tls/5659163489.html  Not PM's finest offering, but it's cast iron, belt drive, and bies fence.

 

I might be in the minority here, but an awesome sawstop wont do you much good if your jointer and planer cant hold up their end of the bargain. $2500 is enough money to get you adequately performing machines. Dont discount the fact that you can sell your current equipment for atleast a couple hundred. I would rather have a functioning and tuned 6" jointer, dw735, and contractor saw instead of a brand new sawstop with crap planer and even worse jointer. I would skip the byrd head if you are tight on funds. 

I've thought of trying to find a nice used saw but with travel (6 hrs. to Cheyenne or Boise), loading and unloading, lack of warranty, and quirkyness of some sellers, I think it's worth it in my situation to buy new and have it delivered.

I work figured wood quite a lot of the time so I'm considering the helical cutter if I go with a jointer.

57 minutes ago, TIODS said:

Saw first.

I've posted my thoughts on jointers here many times so, won't hash over that.

 

I understand that this is a well-worn topic Kev, but searching out the archives for your opinion on jointers is not working for me.

My biggest question is regarding the parallelogram feature. Is it so sweet during set-up that it is superior to traditional dove-tail ways.

32 minutes ago, micks said:

I think you make a valid point, but a nice 6" jointer can be picked up on CL almost any time for not big bucks. You could almost look at it as renting it for a few years, because if you buy it right you can get almost what you pay for it when you sell it to upgrade.

For most of us a Sawstop PCS is a lifetime tablesaw. 

That's an excellent point. I could go with my cabinet saw and continue to use my jointer until I can save for a temporary 6" Craig's List unit.

11 minutes ago, Llama said:

Cheyenne is a haul from Jackson! And who in their right mind lives in Cheyenne? 

Well...I wasn't going to say it quite that way. But...Yes, I imagine very few people live in Cheyenne of their own volition.

[..Kev]

2 minutes ago, davewyo said:

I understand that this is a well-worn topic Kev, but searching out the archives for your opinion on jointers is not working for me.

My biggest question is regarding the parallelogram feature. Is it so sweet during set-up that it is superior to traditional dove-tail ways.

 

My issue is 6" vs 8" Dave.  I'd rather save the money it would cost to upgrade from a 6" to an 8" and apply it towards a drum sander.

Frankly, its a large increase in price to gain 2 extra inches that are really only needed occasionally.  Just a poor cost to return ratio in my book.  There are just too many ways in the shop to do what you need to do on wider boards when you have them.

 

[midtnwoodworker]

2 minutes ago, davewyo said:

My biggest question is regarding the parallelogram feature. Is it so sweet during set-up that it is superior to traditional dove-tail ways.

I recently got the powermatic 54 hh. It has traditional dovetail ways and it took all of 20 minutes to set it up. It was dead on out of the box and has performed awesome since. The helical head is great I haven't had to think about changing knives in the short time I have had it. If you are going to buy a powermatic jointer I would prioritize the helical head over the parallelogram style jointer. Most people are going to disagree with this and suggest a helical head planer since it can be used to clean up the mess that a straight knife planer can make. 

All that said I would personally go with the tablesaw first. I know a lot of people make some great stuff with a jobsite saw, but I would hate to have to do that.

[Llama]

10 minutes ago, TIODS said:

My issue is 6" vs 8" Dave.

Agreed... I don't buy into the 8" being so much better. When in fact, you probably need a 12" when you need a wider machine. This is one of the reasons I am looking at the largest Hammer combination jointer/planer. 

[Immortan D]

I agree with Mike. I know it depends on your workflow, but my bandsaw IS the heart of my shop and the only power tool I will never get rid of.

[Llama]

11 minutes ago, Mike. said:

My bandsaw is the heart of my shop.

If I were allowed one powered machine, it would be a bandsaw. No doubt. 

[davewyo]

3 minutes ago, TIODS said:

My issue is 6" vs 8" Dave.  I'd rather save the money it would cost to upgrade from a 6" to an 8" and apply it towards a drum sander.

Frankly, its a large increase in price to gain 2 extra inches that are really only needed occasionally.  Just a poor cost to return ratio in my book.  There are just too many ways in the shop to do what you need to do on wider boards when you have them.

 

Oh, I see. True, it is quite a difference between the cost of a 6 or 8" jointer. On the other hand, unless it's an exotic, I seldom buy lumber that isn't at least 6" wide. I know I can rip it all to 5 1/2" and run it over the jointer, but that seems like a hassle. It's funny...The cheap Jet combo machine I have is very frustrating, but with it being 10" capacity the width of my stock hasn't even entered into the equation.

8 minutes ago, Mike. said:

Do you have a bandsaw? If not, I would find a way to work that into your budget, even if it means holding back another upgrade. 

My bandsaw is the heart of my shop.  I use it at least 2x as much as my table saw.   I have a sawstop but with a nice, well-tuned bandsaw the safety feature of the sawstop becomes less important.  You will end up doing more work on your bandsaw (particularly rip cuts and tenon cheeks).  With less time on the TS you are less likely to stick your hand into a blade.  

 

Yes I have a Steelex 10" bandsaw which isn't wonderful but I got it tuned to track well and it will resaw if I take it slow and easy. I also have a $100 benchtop Craftsman which I keep a 1/4" blade on for small curved work.

[..Kev]

2 minutes ago, davewyo said:

Oh, I see. True, it is quite a difference between the cost of a 6 or 8" jointer. On the other hand, unless it's an exotic, I seldom buy lumber that isn't at least 6" wide. I know I can rip it all to 5 1/2" and run it over the jointer, but that seems like a hassle. It's funny...The cheap Jet combo machine I have is very frustrating, but with it being 10" capacity the width of my stock hasn't even entered into the equation.

 

You can also rough out your parts first and then mill.

There are times when you want boards of that width tho, I agree.  But, frankly, the bulk of most hobby shop projects don't use boards that wide.  Again, just a cost to return ratio.

[midtnwoodworker]

On boards over 6" that I need the extra width on I can usually get it flat enough to run the planer on my jointer. I remove the guard and take light cuts where needed. It is not an ideal situation, but it works well and doesn't take much longer than usual.

If you want the 8" model I say go for it, but I personally would save that money and use it somewhere else as Kev has said.