Al Capwn Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Background:I have a 6" Delta jointer and a DW734 planer, but I recently picked up some fairly wide (8"+) 8/4 Silverleaf Maple that I need to flatten. I've seen videos on making jigs, but to be honest, it seems like more of a pain than just flattening one face flat with hand planes. Then I can send the other side thru the planer, then use the No. 4 for final finish. If this is a flawed workflow, let me know - always looking to improve.Questions:I've been thinking up picking up a Stanley No. 7 plane to be able to flatten the faces of wider pieces. Would I be better suited with a No. 8, or do you find a No. 7 does fine?Restore an old Stanley, or shell out money on a new WoodRiver/LN? I am not adverse to putting in some cleanup work on an old plane, and I know this is subjective, but how much is a fair price for a user jointer plane, and not a collectible? 50? 100? 150? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 you can run your stock over the jointer, and leave a lip. then use a handplane to flatten out the lipped section. works great! if you want to flatten by hand, the veritas bu jointer is hard to beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjk Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 It depends on how flat you need to go. If you're looking for dead flat - if you buy vintage you won't likely know how flat it is at the time of purchase. For example, buying from Ebay, most sellers wouldn't be able to tell you that it has a few thou dish at the mouth. If it's not flat enough, you have to flatten it - not difficult, but time consuming. Buying a new, premium plane has the advantage of being flat, at the price. If you have a decent straightedge and/or reference surface and a reasonable plane already, you can flatten it without buying a new plane. The trick is to flatten one side just enough that it is stable to run it through the planer to flatten the other side. Then flip it and flatten the other side with the planer. Shannon demonstrates this using a No. 6 in this RWW video (the pertinent part starts at 4:00 in). http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/rww182-hybrid-milling/ You can do the same thing with a planer sled and some means of affixing the board (wedges, hot melt glue, etc) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barron Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 For flattening one face prior to sending through the planner a #5 works fine. It's a lot lighter than a 7 or 8, but will do just as well. A couple of winding sticks to help identify twist are helpful - I use a couple of pieces of Aluminum angle stock for mine, with blue tape on one strip to make it easier to see the twist. Use a sharp blade and a fairly wide mouth. It has always surprised me how quickly I can get to flat on one side. I don't go for final smoothness, just enough so it doesn't rock. Unless you like restoring planes, I'd go for a new one from Lee Valley or Lie-Nielson. A bevel up is a little cheaper and for this kind of work will work fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capwn Posted December 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 29 minutes ago, Pug said: you can run your stock over the jointer, and leave a lip. then use a handplane to flatten out the lipped section. works great! if you want to flatten by hand, the veritas bu jointer is hard to beat. Not a bad idea - the board is just a bit awkward to run over the smaller jointer bed, and the Delta jointer is easily my least quality tool in my line-up. The Veritas BU jointer does look nice. 35 minutes ago, sjk said: ... Buying a new, premium plane has the advantage of being flat, at the price. If you have a decent straightedge and/or reference surface and a reasonable plane already, you can flatten it without buying a new plane. The trick is to flatten one side just enough that it is stable to run it through the planer to flatten the other side. Then flip it and flatten the other side with the planer. Shannon demonstrates this using a No. 6 in this RWW video (the pertinent part starts at 4:00 in). http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/rww182-hybrid-milling/ You can do the same thing with a planer sled and some means of affixing the board (wedges, hot melt glue, etc) Very true, time vs. money thing. I guess that is why I was asking about what a fair price would be for a Stanley No. 7 user. If the "going rate" is ~100 bucks, I basically have a $200 differential. To me, that is worth a bit of sandpaper and elbow grease to flatten the sole on my power jointer bed. If it is 150-200, then then the value proposition starts to go down... That video was very helpful; seems to indicate I could flatten it to "good enough" with any bench plane. Then send it through the planer so long as it doesn't rock or have a bunch of twist/wind in it, and flip it over to mirror the other side. That would leave the edges to finish, which are easier by comparison. 20 minutes ago, Barron said: For flattening one face prior to sending through the planner a #5 works fine. It's a lot lighter than a 7 or 8, but will do just as well. A couple of winding sticks to help identify twist are helpful - I use a couple of pieces of Aluminum angle stock for mine, with blue tape on one strip to make it easier to see the twist. Use a sharp blade and a fairly wide mouth. It has always surprised me how quickly I can get to flat on one side. I don't go for final smoothness, just enough so it doesn't rock. Unless you like restoring planes, I'd go for a new one from Lee Valley or Lie-Nielson. A bevel up is a little cheaper and for this kind of work will work fine. So a jack plane would work? I have a Stanley No. 4 that I did did some mild cleanup, I just didn't think moving up and getting a No. 5 was that much more advantageous...but I am a noob to hand planes. My logic is that a jack plane is the middle of the road; maybe for rough flattening, but then using a jointer to true and a smoother to finish afterwards. Jack of all trades, master of none? I think I saw Chris Schwarz use the angle stock as well; that seems like a really good idea. What length do you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 The number four and number 5 work as a team. Flatten with the jack, and smooth with the 4. If stock is larger, put the 7 in the line up, as it will ride over the valleys that smaller planes will not on the surface of your board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 6 hours ago, Al Capwn said: Very true, time vs. money thing. I guess that is why I was asking about what a fair price would be for a Stanley No. 7 user. If the "going rate" is ~100 bucks, I basically have a $200 differential. To me, that is worth a bit of sandpaper and elbow grease to flatten the sole on my power jointer bed. If it is 150-200, then then the value proposition starts to go down... On ebay, well taken care of, not pitted Stanley #7 planes routinely sell in the $125-180 range before shipping with zero guarantees it is truly flat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capwn Posted December 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 22 minutes ago, Brendon_t said: On ebay, well taken care of, not pitted Stanley #7 planes routinely sell in the $125-180 range before shipping with zero guarantees it is truly flat. Good to know, that puts things in perspective. So with that being said... Would a Low-Angle Jack be a good starting spot, or would it be better to skip it and get a dedicated Jack + Jointer? How many of you have started with a LAJ only to replace it with other planes? Or have you found it tackles the bulk of your flattening needs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 I love my lajp although at only 14", it is not a jointer. It will get you flat enough and tackle many jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgaron Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 You could get a Stanley jack and jointer for what a new LAJP will cost. Probably about $150 total if you keep your eye out on eBay. A benefit of having a few planes with slightly overlapping roles when processing rough lumber is that you can also switch between them if they start to dull prematurely on you rather than having to stop to sharpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capwn Posted December 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 So a quick update, I ended up picking up a Stanley No. 5 that was in decent condition for roughly $50 total. I took some time with the diamond stones to sharpen up the iron and went to test it out on on the maple. What a difference from the No. 4, for sure! A lot less grunt to true up the board. I did consider a new Bevel Up Jack plane, but pretty much every video has the caveat being that if you have other dedicated planes, the LAJP gets less use. It does provide options, but it does come at a trade off. I figure the No. 5 will get it to flat enough that it won't rock to send through the planer. Then if I want to skip on sanding, use the No. 4 to get things to silky smooth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barron Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Sounds like you are on your way. My practice is to use the winding sticks to id the twist, mark those areas with a pencil, then do what ever I need to stop the rocking. Most of my passes are across the width of the board, at an angle from 45 to 90 degrees and taking fairly thick passes. Chris Schwartz has a great video on hand planning as does David Charlesworth. Check out the videos on the Lie-Nielson site. Good luck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 A dead flat sole doesn't matter a bit on a Jack plane. I've only bothered with the soles on my Smoothing and Jointer planes. I hit my 6's to see what they were like out of curiosity, but didn't bother. I own and use every size 3 and above, and have multiples of some. The only new/high dollar plane I own is a LV shooter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capwn Posted December 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 4 hours ago, Barron said: Sounds like you are on your way. My practice is to use the winding sticks to id the twist, mark those areas with a pencil, then do what ever I need to stop the rocking. Most of my passes are across the width of the board, at an angle from 45 to 90 degrees and taking fairly thick passes. Chris Schwartz has a great video on hand planning as does David Charlesworth. Check out the videos on the Lie-Nielson site. Good luck. Yes sir, that is basically what I ended up doing. I identified the high spots where it was contacting and rocking and planed down the opposing corners causing the rocking. Took maybe a couple minutes to get it to a point where the rock was gone, whereas the No. 4 took quite a bit more effort and significantly longer to get anywhere. I checked out Marc's video on planing wide boards, as well as Chris Schwarz and the Renaissance Woodworker as well. I still need to get some aluminum angle iron stock to make a couple of winding sticks - those should be really handy. 2 hours ago, Tom King said: A dead flat sole doesn't matter a bit on a Jack plane. I've only bothered with the soles on my Smoothing and Jointer planes. I hit my 6's to see what they were like out of curiosity, but didn't bother. I own and use every size 3 and above, and have multiples of some. The only new/high dollar plane I own is a LV shooter. I think Chris Schwarz mentioned the same thing along those lines in his Coarse, Medium and Fine article; it is rough work to get it "good enough" as a starting point. The Jointer and Smoother are where he mentioned sole flatness was more critical. I figured if I was going to invest any high-dollar money, it would be on specialty planes or a jointer plane to ensure that it is dead-flat. Flattening a jointer plane sole does not sound like a task I would entertain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjk Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 2 minutes ago, Al Capwn said: I still need to get some aluminum angle iron stock to make a couple of winding sticks - those should be really handy. You can make them out of stable wood. The first lesson in the Renaissance Woodworker's Hand Tool School is making a set of winding sticks. That first lesson used to be free, as a preview. I just searched "preview" on the RWW website, and it looks like it's still free - thanks Shannon!. http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/?s=preview Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim DaddyO Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 I use a #5 and a #7 generally to get one face flat enough to go through the planer. I have 5 bench planes (all the whole #'s from 3 to 7 for $115). I could get by with the #5, #7 and #4. The 5 is set up for rough work, the 7 is fairly well tuned for jointing and the 4 is tuned the best as a smoother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 My Record 7, and Stanley 8 weren't that bad to flatten, but if I ever have another one that needs flattening, I'm sending it to Tom Bussey: http://www.tablesawtom.com/plane.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 For bench planes, I use a 4, 5, and 7 (all veritas) for my work. Of the three bench planes, the 5 gets the most use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 Tom, that is worth $80.00 to you? The only way I could see that as a value is if I Needed square sides. Since you have a dedicated shooter, what's the value for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 I never thought about using the surface grinder for that... I should bring in some of my planes to the shop and fix them 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 I didn't check his current prices. I didn't think it was that much. Not for 20 minutes work, which is probably the most I've put in flattening one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capwn Posted December 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 13 hours ago, sjk said: You can make them out of stable wood. The first lesson in the Renaissance Woodworker's Hand Tool School is making a set of winding sticks. That first lesson used to be free, as a preview. I just searched "preview" on the RWW website, and it looks like it's still free - thanks Shannon!. http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/?s=preview Very true, and Paul Sellers has a video on making them out of wood as well. The OCD part of me seems to think that if I have to worry about the wood twisting or moving in the winding sticks, I have a tool that is not very reliable. I also need to make sure that they are parallel to each other, which means I need somewhat precise milling. It becomes the chicken-egg type problem. It is like when they say "Measure with a known good square". How do you know you have a square-square without having a square-square? You generally need to purchase one that is "gar-un-teed" square. I am probably overthinking it, though. 42 minutes ago, Tom King said: I didn't check his current prices. I didn't think it was that much. Not for 20 minutes work, which is probably the most I've put in flattening one. What was the process for flattening a larger plane? I used the bed of my powered joiner and some diamond plates to flatten the sole of the No.4, but not sure what the process would be for a longer plane. 52 minutes ago, Pug said: For bench planes, I use a 4, 5, and 7 (all veritas) for my work. Of the three bench planes, the 5 gets the most use. In the brief experience with the No. 5, I can totally see why. Seems like a workhorse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 I use sandpaper attached to a sheet of glass to flatten hand planes and other stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 I have several granite surface plates, including one large enough for the long planes, and some PSA backed sandpaper on rolls for various things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barron Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 The angle material will get you started quickly and cheaply and are very accurate, but I would never recommend against the Hand Tool School. In fact, with having to move to a much smaller shop and not having a table saw anymore, I may sign up myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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