bleedinblue Posted May 29, 2018 Report Share Posted May 29, 2018 The latest installment of "help Frank maintain his house..." We had a whole house fan installed in the ceiling of our top floor a few years back. From the beginning, I knew I should build a structure to insulate it, but I never found a perfect solution. My biggest hangup is that I don't know how to ensure the lid will open to allow the air to escape the fan and enter the attic. My wife's father, and my brother in law, both made these contraptions with pullies and a line that ran to a closet. Before turning on the fan, they'd go to the closet, pull the line down and tie it off. That feels like a messy way to do it, and there is likely a better solution. I know I have seen some guys post that they built an insulation box out of styrofoam, and the lid was light weight enough that the fan simply blew it open. It doesn't seem like that would offer much insulation value though. Maybe I'm wrong. This would certainly be the simpliest option I think. Ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfitz Posted May 29, 2018 Report Share Posted May 29, 2018 I would think the most important thing about any lid/cover would be to ensure that it is airtight - leaking air flowing into the attic would cause much more heat to be lost than would a low R-value. If it were me, I'd also try to implement a 'hands off' system where the air from the fan pushes the lid up. If it's too heavy , some sort of spring or counterweight could take 'most' of the weight off and still make for easy opening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted May 29, 2018 Report Share Posted May 29, 2018 I found this page from a guy who went absolutely crazy about insulating his fan: https://www.openhardware.io/view/127/Insulated-Whole-House-Fan WARNING! watching his video made me sick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted May 29, 2018 Report Share Posted May 29, 2018 So is the issue trying to keep the air in the Attic or crawl space from seeping back into the house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted May 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 5 hours ago, Brendon_t said: So is the issue trying to keep the air in the Attic or crawl space from seeping back into the house? Pretty much. In my head it will provide most benefits in the winter, since the thin metal of the fan/veins surely leak warm air like a siv. I'm on the subject now because we're getting an estimate tomorrow for blown in insulation...our second floor temps get out of control in the summer time, we need to figure out how to better control them. I'm hoping the radiated heat from the attic is at least partially to blame, since that is relatively controllable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 My whole house fan does pretty good at cooling the attic and reducing temps up stairs. Can't help on the insulation though, California.. never thought about cold getting in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 12 hours ago, bleedinblue said: Pretty much. In my head it will provide most benefits in the winter, since the thin metal of the fan/veins surely leak warm air like a siv. I'm on the subject now because we're getting an estimate tomorrow for blown in insulation...our second floor temps get out of control in the summer time, we need to figure out how to better control them. I'm hoping the radiated heat from the attic is at least partially to blame, since that is relatively controllable. Be interesting to know how much the blow in costs. I did it myself and it's probably the easiest house related thing to do. If you can crouch and point a hose you can insulate an attic. I need to do the same thing my self. When i installed a ceiling fan i noticed that my house only has about 6-10" of insulation in the attic which is ok but last winter the heating bill got pretty high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bankstick Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 If you have recessed lights or can lights as they are called, make sure that the insulation does not cover the top. Hopefully, they are Insulation Compatible IC). That is, the insulation can make contact on the sides but not the top of the light. Heat will build up and the thermal sensor will shut off the light. I have a lot of insulation in the attic and it pays off in hot and cold weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted May 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Chestnut said: Be interesting to know how much the blow in costs. I did it myself and it's probably the easiest house related thing to do. If you can crouch and point a hose you can insulate an attic. I need to do the same thing my self. When i installed a ceiling fan i noticed that my house only has about 6-10" of insulation in the attic which is ok but last winter the heating bill got pretty high. Guy just left. To bring it up to R49 its gonna be about $1000. For reference, our house is 2 story, 2500 square feet. He did say he saw a couple of things he can fix to improve ventilation, I was wrestling with my kid at the time so I don't remember what he said. I don't think* that he was charging for that, said it was minor...but it could account for some of the cost. 40 minutes ago, Bankstick said: If you have recessed lights or can lights as they are called, make sure that the insulation does not cover the top. Hopefully, they are Insulation Compatible IC). That is, the insulation can make contact on the sides but not the top of the light. Heat will build up and the thermal sensor will shut off the light. I have a lot of insulation in the attic and it pays off in hot and cold weather. No can lights upstairs so that won't be an issue, luckily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 31 minutes ago, bleedinblue said: Guy just left. To bring it up to R49 its gonna be about $1000. For reference, our house is 2 story, 2500 square feet. He did say he saw a couple of things he can fix to improve ventilation, I was wrestling with my kid at the time so I don't remember what he said. I don't think* that he was charging for that, said it was minor...but it could account for some of the cost. No can lights upstairs so that won't be an issue, luckily. Dang send the guy to my house when he's done that's like $600 in insulation alone. 1 hour ago, Bankstick said: If you have recessed lights or can lights as they are called, make sure that the insulation does not cover the top. Hopefully, they are Insulation Compatible IC). That is, the insulation can make contact on the sides but not the top of the light. Heat will build up and the thermal sensor will shut off the light. I have a lot of insulation in the attic and it pays off in hot and cold weather. Does this matter for the new LED cans? I have some LED cans that i know are covered but I've never had issues with them even on 100 degree days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted May 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 The estimate I received, on the pre-printed firm, said they would include can light covers if needed. Probsbly standard practice to take all necessary safety precautions like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 4 hours ago, bleedinblue said: Guy just left. To bring it up to R49 its gonna be about $1000. For reference, our house is 2 story, 2500 square feet. He did say he saw a couple of things he can fix to improve ventilation, I was wrestling with my kid at the time so I don't remember what he said. I don't think* that he was charging for that, said it was minor...but it could account for some of the cost. That's pretty awesome. I had a few quotes before last summer and the lowest was 6500, highest was 13k plus. House about the same size but original insulation to 71 build time. Aka, my insulation is now about cardboard thickness or an R value of spaghetti. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted May 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Brendon_t said: That's pretty awesome. I had a few quotes before last summer and the lowest was 6500, highest was 13k plus. House about the same size but original insulation to 71 build time. Aka, my insulation is now about cardboard thickness or an R value of spaghetti. Whaaaaat? Are you talking walls? This is just for blown in insulation into the attic. Not a whole lot of labor involved (guy said it would take about two hours), and if the Nut is right, most of the cost from my estimate is materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark J Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 4 hours ago, Chestnut said: .... Does this matter for the new LED cans? I have some LED cans that i know are covered but I've never had issues with them even on 100 degree days. After our remodel in '06 the can light in the shower kept cutting out. I replaced the incandescent bulb with a CFL (nowadays an LED) and had no further problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 It is super simple to build a rigid foam box around cans that you can bury. Direct contact is usually what is frowned on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legenddc Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 Dang. I might have to get a quote now. Our 2nd story is always hotter, especially my daughter's room. Attic is probably 800 sq ft but there's ~8-18" between the ceiling joists and the flat (white) roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbutcher74 Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 If anybody is an Ameren customer, they have a program called Act on Energy. I think it's mainly Illinois and Missouri customers. We cashed in a few years ago. They filled the walls,attic and sprayed foam around the sill in the basement. The whole thing only cost us around $400.00 and we got to pick the contractor. Our average power bill in the winter went from as much as $700.00 to around $250 - $300. I think most utilities our some sort of program. It's well worth checking it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bankstick Posted May 30, 2018 Report Share Posted May 30, 2018 A CFL bulb is easier than climbing up into the attic to move insulation. LED lights don't give off the hear of a incandescent bulb. When I sold lighting LED lighting was very new. Now I see traffic lights and automotive lights with LEDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 I saw where some LED traffic lights need a heater to keep the light from getting covered with snow. The old halogen bulbs kept the lens warm enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 8 hours ago, bleedinblue said: Whaaaaat? Are you talking walls? This is just for blown in insulation into the attic. Not a whole lot of labor involved (guy said it would take about two hours), and if the Nut is right, most of the cost from my estimate is materials. Nope not walls. Remove old insulation, install radiant barrier paper, cage the can lights (country retirement for special fire proof cages on cans) blown in something like 18". Gotta remember the area. Lots of houses but around LA in the 60's and 70's that now 5-800k and ripe in need of major repair. Contractors here make a metric sheet ton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 10 hours ago, Brendon_t said: Nope not walls. Remove old insulation, install radiant barrier paper, cage the can lights (country retirement for special fire proof cages on cans) blown in something like 18". Gotta remember the area. Lots of houses but around LA in the 60's and 70's that now 5-800k and ripe in need of major repair. Contractors here make a metric sheet ton. This is interesting coming from 1 of 2 states where it's legal to insulate over knob and tube wiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Chestnut said: This is interesting coming from 1 of 2 states where it's legal to insulate over knob and tube wiring. Yo right, I also have aluminum wiring thought-out and they don't care but Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 Bb, not intending a thread Jack but if there info, I'll move it out. Speaking of insulating the whole house fan, it seems like everyone is worried about losing heat. I have the opposite issue. My top floor is a furnace due to low insulation value and needing radiant barriers. I've never thought about it but should I be thinking about insulating the box from the inside to keep the cool morning air in the house and keep the heat from the attic from seeing back down through into the living area? I searched Google but the whole first page have no info about heat coming back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted May 31, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 I don't care about the thread jack at all, it's all still relevant. I still think the biggest issue with the fan, just as with the entirety of the attic insulation, is in the winter. I'd like to put a thermometer on the ceiling though to see what temp the drywall is at. I bet the ceiling, and the casing of the fan, gets considerably warmer than it could be. I envision it as a hot plate sitting on top of the living area. I'm under no dilusion that this will be a night and day difference, especially in the summer, but maaaaaybe a degree or three may be saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted May 31, 2018 Report Share Posted May 31, 2018 Your blow in insulation is going to make a good difference in both summer and winter. My old house had 4" of cellulose. After i blew in 18+ inches it went from feeling like an oven to feeling like a normal house. The heating bill in the winter went down a good 15%. It took me 2 years only to pay for the insulation in savings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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