Chestnut Posted January 18, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, derekcohen said: 1. Firstly, BC are a highly reputable company with top level components. There are many cheap look-a-likes that may be had for pennies in the dollar, but their questionable quality and limited quality assurance are quickly evident. Lie Nielsen and Award hand planes may look the same, and do a similar task, but we know that they are very different in ays that count. I fully agree that BC is a good company and has an awesome product. They have a bench makers package that combines the tail vise and leg vise adds in $3 in bolts, bench plans and ups the price by $35. I already have bench plans and I'm not going to pay $35 for bolts i could get far cheaper. My question wasn't the validity of the company but the value of the package they offer. I call it a scam because it's marketed on their website like they are saving you money but with the up charge on the bolts the marketing is misleading. I shouldn't have put scam because that word got fixated on like i kicked everyone's favorite puppy. Though i don't think there is a way that i could word that which would convey the point and not cause offense. Their hardware in general offers great value for what they charge. I've priced Acme rods and Acme nuts, the cost of those alone is astounding. 7 minutes ago, derekcohen said: 3. For most, the ideal width of a bench is 22". This allows one to work across it .... unless you are a gorilla, and in which case I shall not argue with you This was mostly centered around how I have a project with legs spaced 24" apart and want to set said project on my bench and I either can get 3 legs on the bench or there is 1/4" of leg catching the edge and it's ready to get knocked off. I will orient my bench in a way that i can get to both sides so the width is easy to manage I'd just walk around to the other side. I wasn't thinking of anything drastic just 26" maybe 27". At 5'7" I'm defiantly not a gorilla, unless i was the runt of the troop. 11 minutes ago, derekcohen said: 4. The Moxon vise was a game-changer. I built a twin screw into the front of a bench about 20 years ago for dovetailing. This is not the same as a Moxon. The Moxon goes on top of the bench. This raises the work piece up for easier access, and this creates better control. With the dovetailing removed from the face vise duties, a leg vise becomes a quicker and easier way of clamping boards for edge planing. Keep in mind that I am a hand tool-orientated woodworker (although I class myself as blended since I use machines to rough out boards). Work holding is, therefore, of great importance. My Roubo bench is orientated to this end ... I have the space to do a smaller dedicated higher top bench with a twin screw mounted in it. The benefit in my mind is that i wouldn't have a large object that i'd have to store. Also while working it wouldn't be in the way on the main bench. I don't do nearly as much hand tool work as you do but probably more than most but it is expanding with every year, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark J Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Chestnut said: This was mostly centered around how I have a project with legs spaced 24" apart and want to set said project on my bench and I either can get 3 legs on the bench or there is 1/4" of leg catching the edge and it's ready to get knocked off. I will orient my bench in a way that i can get to both sides so the width is easy to manage I'd just walk around to the other side. Assuming you were using the bench more as an assembly table in this instance, you could make a temporary top that's say 28 or 30 inches wide, and maybe not the full length of the bench. This could engage a couple of the dog holes to keep it from sliding. But frankly I don't see anything wrong with making the bench wider and walking around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 Regarding the price of the vise kit, did it recently drop in price? Marc posted on the project page that the kit was (I'm guessing, trying to remember, here) something like $800 as of Jan 2018. I've also got the Roubo itch but I'm also timid about the narrow width of traditional benches. My current plywood bench is three feet wide and I have never thought it cumbersome, in fact I've often wished it larger as it's also used for assembly. Obviously I can't reach the other side, but walking five steps to get there isn't an issue. Maybe it's a "once you try it you'll get it" type issue. The $35 for the plans/bolts/whatever isnt a big hangup for me. Sure it's a few extra dollars, but for a project that will be $1500 in materials, I dont see the $35 as a big issue one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 18, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 55 minutes ago, bleedinblue said: The $35 for the plans/bolts/whatever isnt a big hangup for me. Sure it's a few extra dollars, but for a project that will be $1500 in materials, I dont see the $35 as a big issue one way or the other. I don't mean offense but if i was caviler with every $35 purchase I'd be broke. I get that it's a fraction the cost but if it's not needed why waste? If i can simply buy 6 3" bolts from the home center for $3 seems like it's a good $30 i could put towards some more hardwood. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkinneb Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 $35 for the plans alone were worth it to me, they are very well done. Come to think of it I don't think I used those bolts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 What are the bolts for? Securing the end cap? Securing the top to the base? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 18, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 37 minutes ago, bleedinblue said: What are the bolts for? Securing the end cap? Securing the top to the base? Knock down hardware for the base and 2 bolts for the end cap. 1 hour ago, pkinneb said: $35 for the plans alone were worth it to me, they are very well done. Come to think of it I don't think I used those bolts I guess but i have detailed plans on the roubo guild build. That and it's a bench it's not rocket science... I'd love to get into rocket science though solid fuel boosters sound super interesting. Marc's roubo build has a lot of good info in it that i've used for non-workbench projects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 Gotcha. I honestly see the justification for the $35. Not everyone who buys that kit are going to have purchased Marc's plans, and some will like having the hardware in a package to take out the guesswork. I think you did convince me to buy the vises separately though. I have no interest in the knock down hardware, already have the guild plans, and I might even just do the huge spax screws for the end cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 18, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, bleedinblue said: Gotcha. I honestly see the justification for the $35. Not everyone who buys that kit are going to have purchased Marc's plans, and some will like having the hardware in a package to take out the guesswork. I think you did convince me to buy the vises separately though. I have no interest in the knock down hardware, already have the guild plans, and I might even just do the huge spax screws for the end cap. I guess i didn't consider the value of the plans. I don't attach a whole lot to that beings that most that find BC probably have read schwartz or w/e his name is. There is a crowd that don't want to create their own and just want plans too i guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 I priced out the cost of the BC plans and kit, and decided it wasn't worth it for me. My bench won't be a knockdown bench, so there was no need for that hardware. Marc's plans were sufficient for me. As far as width goes, mine will end up being a bit wider (~25-26"). It's easy enough to widen the slabs a bit, and after that it's just adjusting the small rails to fit. I built a BC Moxon vice about a year ago for a project that needed dovetails, and it was great. I don't dovetail a lot, but I make a fair number of other small projects, and the added height of the table (I built a small bench into the back of the Moxon) makes working on small, detailed projects much easier. As well the ability to clamp irregular shaped objects is useful. The only problem is storage, as it it about 30" x 12" and made of hard maple, so it is big, bulky and heavy. Overall though, I would do it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 3 hours ago, bleedinblue said: Gotcha. I honestly see the justification for the $35. Not everyone who buys that kit are going to have purchased Marc's plans, and some will like having the hardware in a package to take out the guesswork. I think you did convince me to buy the vises separately though. I have no interest in the knock down hardware, already have the guild plans, and I might even just do the huge spax screws for the end cap. I did the Spax (10" I think) screws for the end cap. I suppose they aren't technically as "strong" as the bolts, but there is no way those things are ever moving. If enough force is being applied to the bench where those screws are in danger of failing, then honestly, you have bigger problems to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjk Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 Have you seen the Renaissance Woodworker's "joinery bench"? https://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/rww190-the-joinery-bench/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 12 hours ago, sjk said: Have you seen the Renaissance Woodworker's "joinery bench"? https://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/rww190-the-joinery-bench/ That is honestly what has given me the initial idea. Also i have a station that my laptop is on that i could change into a bench and it'd be about the perfect space. I'd just have to shift my laptop a bit when i wanted to use it. Which is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 I love Shannon's J bench. Would love to have a hybrid between it, and Rick's bench top bench. I'm fairly tall and build my bench tall but still hate bending over all the time for detail work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardA Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 36 minutes ago, Brendon_t said: I love Shannon's J bench. Would love to have a hybrid between it, and Rick's bench top bench. I'm fairly tall and build my bench tall but still hate bending over all the time for detail work. Brendon, I'm 6'2".. My bench is at 37" and the mini bench brings that small work space to my lower to middle chest. The only bending is my neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 14 minutes ago, RichardA said: Brendon, I'm 6'2".. My bench is at 37" and the mini bench brings that small work space to my lower to middle chest. The only bending is my neck. Interesting. I am kicking around having my workbench at 35" and if i made a detail bench it'd probably be around 45". The stand my laptop is on is right at 42" and If i put a piece of 6/4 under it it becomes slightly more comfortable. The lower middle chest hiehgt is helpful thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 32 minutes ago, RichardA said: Brendon, I'm 6'2".. My bench is at 37" and the mini bench brings that small work space to my lower to middle chest. The only bending is my neck. We've got the same spread. At 6'1, my bench is at 36. I made my shop stool the right height for me to sit and work comfortably, but I would much prefer to stand and work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procell40 Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 On 1/18/2019 at 5:54 PM, Chestnut said: I guess i didn't consider the value of the plans. I don't attach a whole lot to that beings that most that find BC probably have read schwartz or w/e his name is. There is a crowd that don't want to create their own and just want plans too i guess. also , If you get the Package , the plans included are for the current vise hardware. Marcs plans are based off of the original vise hardware with the ....roller slide thing , while the new criss cross vises completely change the front vise leg layout , and the front rail is completely different as well. Being able to refer to full sized blue prints for the differences between marcs plan , and what i need for the current vise set up is worth more than 35$. The bolts are 'meh' , I could go either way. (bonus for blueprint nerds like me , can frame and hang the roubo plans!!. I can't get enough blueprint tool art !) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, procell40 said: also , If you get the Package , the plans included are for the current vise hardware. Marcs plans are based off of the original vise hardware with the ....roller slide thing , while the new criss cross vises completely change the front vise leg layout , and the front rail is completely different as well. Being able to refer to full sized blue prints for the differences between marcs plan , and what i need for the current vise set up is worth more than 35$. The bolts are 'meh' , I could go either way. (bonus for blueprint nerds like me , can frame and hang the roubo plans!!. I can't get enough blueprint tool art !) Marc put out cross cross updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procell40 Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, Tpt life said: Marc put out cross cross updates. For Retro installs , yes. For new installs , I'd look at the BC plans first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 24 minutes ago, procell40 said: also , If you get the Package , the plans included are for the current vise hardware. Marcs plans are based off of the original vise hardware with the ....roller slide thing , while the new criss cross vises completely change the front vise leg layout , and the front rail is completely different as well. Being able to refer to full sized blue prints for the differences between marcs plan , and what i need for the current vise set up is worth more than 35$. The bolts are 'meh' , I could go either way. (bonus for blueprint nerds like me , can frame and hang the roubo plans!!. I can't get enough blueprint tool art !) Marc does include updates. Also they do offer plans of a sort on their website for mounting the leg vise with the hardware provided. You just don't get plans for the rest of the bench which is really a table. A strudy table but still a table. https://www.benchcrafted.com/download-files/CrisscrossGlide_Instructions-BC0418.pdf Page 19 &20 are really all you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 25 minutes ago, procell40 said: For Retro installs , yes. For new installs , I'd look at the BC plans first I don’t own the BC bench plans, so am curious how they differ. Marc backwards updated plans and all for those who start out with the criss cross. Pulled the plans to verify just now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 23 minutes ago, Chestnut said: You just don't get plans for the rest of the bench which is really a table. Page 19 &20 are really all you need. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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