Tracksaw versus circular saw and guide

[Naomi]

Hi everyone. I’m pretty new to power tool woodworking. We’re on a budget so I’ll be building our kitchen and cupboards in the house we’re building. I have a Bosch contractor table saw which scares the hell out of me. I’ll probably be breaking down many sheets of ply. I’m not sure there’s someone who can do it for me that is conveniently located or who I trust to do it right. I’ve been researching track saws like crazy. I live in Israel and the prices are high. Just to give an idea of price, if I’d get a nice Makita 7.5” circular saw , it would cost 750 NIS. A track saw is about 2300 NIS. I have a cordless porter cable that probably won’t get the job done. Now I am budget conscious but if a track saw will make all the difference, I’ll take the plunge (no pun intended). I guess my real question is how much more efficient (if at all) is a track saw over a circular saw with guide? It doesn’t seem like the Kreg accucut does much better than a homemade guide. Thank you for reading my long question!

[pkinneb]

Welcome! Ultimately they do the same thing with the biggest difference being on a track its pretty hard (almost impossible) to veer off the track with a guide you just have to keep it tight to the guide. If I were doing a whole kitchen I would seriously consider getting a track saw. FWIW in my opinion you should not be breaking down sheet goods on a contractor saw but that's just me. I've seen some pretty sketch examples out on YouTube that make me cringe LOL

[Naomi]

Thank you! No I would never break it down on the saw. I mean I would rip smaller pieces like drawers on it. I also think it would be too heavy for me. Safety is another reason the track saw looks good to me.  Could you make due with one fence or is it just easier to get two?

[pkinneb]

I have three 32", 55", & 106" for what you are going to be doing the 55" & 106" would be really nice to have.

[Chestnut]

I built cabinets for a house and accomplished 95% of the cuts with a track saw. You could get by with a circular saw and an edge guide but I'd cut in steps if you go that route. Cut slightly oversized and then trim all the parts to final size.

I have 2 sections 800mm & 1900mm, they make connectors to connect 2 tracks together and I use those connectors when i need to make longer cuts.

Doing a quick search after conversion a 2300 NIS track saw is roughly $675 USD which is dang close to what a decent track saw costs here. One other thing to consider is resale value. A track saw might be easier to sell used when you are done if you don't think you'll need to keep it. On the flip side you could try searching the used market and see how much used units go for. If they are selling for more than 65% of new I usually buy new this is an example and is highly variable based on condition.

[Naomi]

Chestnut, you are making me regret my tablesaw purchase! I was thinking I could just do as you say and trim on the table saw but it wouldn’t work for large parts. I guess what I’m really asking is regarding efficiency. Is a tracksaw enabling you to cut faster than a circular saw with a guide or it’s pretty close? I learn from a master carpenter and he thinks they’re a gimmick. He also doesn’t think much of honing guides but I’m very glad I have one!

[legenddc]

I've found track saws to be easier to set up then a circular saw and a guide. Some of it is just the weight of the track/guide. Resale value of a tracksaw is pretty good here. You could buy a Festool tracksaw and only loose 10-15%.

A big infeed/outfeed table might help you out making the cuts on your table saw but I would still be tempted to buy a track saw if you're doing a full kitchen.

[Mark J]

I've used a guide with a router (which is admittedly a different animal) and found it difficukt to follwow the guide.  I have since bought a used Festool track saw and found this much eadier to set up and operate.  If I were spending my money I would go with the track saw.  

Also, here in Chicago I get my plywood from a lumbar yard and if possible I have them make at least one cut so it's more manageable in the shop.  Of course plywood panels here are 4 x 8 feet, rather than 5 x 5 feet, but even still.

[Chestnut]

4 hours ago, Naomi said:

Chestnut, you are making me regret my tablesaw purchase! I was thinking I could just do as you say and trim on the table saw but it wouldn’t work for large parts. I guess what I’m really asking is regarding efficiency. Is a tracksaw enabling you to cut faster than a circular saw with a guide or it’s pretty close? I learn from a master carpenter and he thinks they’re a gimmick. He also doesn’t think much of honing guides but I’m very glad I have one!

Don't, table saws are a great resource. Get a solid miter gauge and you'll never need a sliding compound miter saw.

As far as efficiency that's really hard to say. At the end of the day it comes down to work flow. The carpenter you know probably has his work flow dialed in perfectly and changes to that will only slow him down. Take his advise it's probably very valuable but keep in mind professionals typically need to be able to justify an increase in profit to justify a new tool. His workflow may not utilize a track saw the same way as the next guy.  I personally have made many cabinets where the table saw is never turned on, I've made cabinets where all sheet good cutting was done on the table saw. I personally now like to take a saw to the plywood as opposed  to the plywood to the saw. Plywood is heavy and the less i have to handle large pieces and potentially hurt myself the better.

Track saws are a bit faster because the cut line is the edge of the track. That said it's possible to make a guide for a circular saw that operates the same way. If you have a guide for your circular saw that operates the same way as a track saw there would be no efficiency difference. The big difference is if you have to memorize the distance you need to offset a strait edge your circular saw rides against. That offset can lead to lost efficiency and lost accuracy.

[Tom King]

Guides were used for decades, before track saws were ever seen.  This particular one is a few decades old.  I just don't use it that often.  

I think this picture was taken in 2011.  The only time I've used it since then was to rip a stack of plywood for roof sheathing. When cutting plywood, it's easier to use it, than not to.  I have a shorter one for trimming house doors too, that's probably 35 years old.

This particular cut was 20 feet long, and had to be perfectly straight.  The guide is a piece of 1/4" Luan plywood, and a straight factory edge of MDF.  You glue the fence on, and make the first cut with your circular saw.  That will always be the edge of the blade. Mark your cuts on the ends, and clamp the guide in place.

 The other side was cut with, and for a router. You lay it where you want it, and clamp it in place. In this case, I had my helpers stand on it.  It's not hard holding the saw against the fence.

The biggest difference in this, and the commercial ones is dust collection.

I have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of tools, for all sorts of jobs.  If having a commercial track saw was worth it to me, I'd have one.  If I was just making one set of cabinets, I'd have a hard time justifying the cost of one.

 

[wtnhighlander]

I will add that Track saws (the ones I've seen, at least) have the ability to safely plunge cut, something you won't find in a circular saw. Dust extraction is much better, too. But as much as I would like to, I can't justify $600 - $1200 USD when I can do the same task with a circular saw priced under $100, and $20 in materials for a guide. If I did more sheet goods, maybe...

[Tom King]

Actually, the cut in my picture was a plunge cut to start with.  There was a wall at each end.  I put a mark on the blade, with a Sharpie, and that could be seen when the blade was spinning, so I knew where to lock the saw.  It was also at a very slight angle, so I didn't have to put any surface fasteners in the adjoining board we were dropping in.  The matching angle on both pieces held the board in place while the construction adhesive underneath cured.

This was an 1828 house that had some rotten parts in the top 3/4" of the 1-1/2" thick flooring.  We milled off the 3/4" bad tops. The replacement boards were 20' long, mostly clear, milled out of old Heart Pine beams, and cost $27 a board foot.

 

[Naomi]

9 hours ago, legenddc said:

I've found track saws to be easier to set up then a circular saw and a guide. Some of it is just the weight of the track/guide. Resale value of a tracksaw is pretty good here. You could buy a Festool tracksaw and only loose 10-15%.

A big infeed/outfeed table might help you out making the cuts on your table saw but I would still be tempted to buy a track saw if you're doing a full kitchen.

Weight is a good point - I would probably make the guide from MDF, which for a full sheet of ply, would be rather heavy. I would love  to make a decent outfeed table, or rather, some kind of bigger table that I could drop the saw into.

[Naomi]

4 hours ago, Chestnut said:

Don't, table saws are a great resource. Get a solid miter gauge and you'll never need a sliding compound miter saw.

That is an excellent tip. Any in particular? What about a sliding bed?

As far as efficiency that's really hard to say. At the end of the day it comes down to work flow. The carpenter you know probably has his work flow dialed in perfectly and changes to that will only slow him down. Take his advise it's probably very valuable but keep in mind professionals typically need to be able to justify an increase in profit to justify a new tool. His workflow may not utilize a track saw the same way as the next guy.  I personally have made many cabinets where the table saw is never turned on, I've made cabinets where all sheet good cutting was done on the table saw. I personally now like to take a saw to the plywood as opposed  to the plywood to the saw. Plywood is heavy and the less i have to handle large pieces and potentially hurt myself the better.

His setup is he's right next to a guy who has a panel saw. He has the guy rip everything down and make short work of it. I am supposed to go to his shop and we'll rip down one set of cabinets from a sheet and the other his friend will do. He is trying to show me doing it myself is much slower than taking the sheets  to be cut down on a panel saw. I am not sure it would be as convenient for me where I am.

Track saws are a bit faster because the cut line is the edge of the track. That said it's possible to make a guide for a circular saw that operates the same way.

Oh yeah, i would only consider zero clearance or whatever  it's called. 

If you have a guide for your circular saw that operates the same way as a track saw there would be no efficiency difference.

So I guess this is the main thing - if there's no efficiency  difference, i should just take my sheets to a panel saw and not even bother cutting these down myself, let alone spending loads of money on a track saw.

The big difference is if you have to memorize the distance you need to offset a strait edge your circular saw rides against. That offset can lead to lost efficiency and lost accuracy. 

Yes, that sounds like a major time-waster and stressor!

 

[Naomi]

4 hours ago, Tom King said:

Guides were used for decades, before track saws were ever seen.  This particular one is a few decades old.  I just don't use it that often.  

I think this picture was taken in 2011.  The only time I've used it since then was to rip a stack of plywood for roof sheathing. When cutting plywood, it's easier to use it, than not to.  I have a shorter one for trimming house doors too, that's probably 35 years old.

This particular cut was 20 feet long, and had to be perfectly straight.  The guide is a piece of 1/4" Luan plywood, and a straight factory edge of MDF.  You glue the fence on, and make the first cut with your circular saw.  That will always be the edge of the blade. Mark your cuts on the ends, and clamp the guide in place.

 The other side was cut with, and for a router. You lay it where you want it, and clamp it in place. In this case, I had my helpers stand on it.  It's not hard holding the saw against the fence.

The biggest difference in this, and the commercial ones is dust collection.

If that is the main difference, then it doesn't seem worth it!

I have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of tools, for all sorts of jobs.  If having a commercial track saw was worth it to me, I'd have one.  If I was just making one set of cabinets, I'd have a hard time justifying the cost of one.

Well, I will be making all the cabinets in the house, and the main issue is efficiency. There is a guy with a panel saw nearby. Do I trust him to perform the cuts correctly and in a timely fashion? I don;t know yet. Will cuts on the circular saw give  chipout on laminates?

 

 

[wtnhighlander]

My saw guide is made like Tom's illustration, but to keep the weight low and have the fence a bit longer than a full sheet of ply, I used a length of 1/4" ply for the base, and an aluminum saw guide for the fence. The fence is two pieces, so I clamped them against a plywood edge to make sure they remained aligned while I screwed it all together.

 

[Tom King]

If you have access to the panel saw, by all means use it. 

[Dave H]

I break down sheet goods with the saw guide that Tom King shows for at least 30 yrs, it is safe and effective far easier than running through a table saw. The saw guide costs next to nothing if you have some scrap ply laying around. A couple quick camps on some saw horses 

The 2x4 grid is something I've been using for years it breaks down and just leans against a wall when not in use, good luck.

[gee-dub]

I did much as others have stated with a shop made guide.  I was a firm believer in this system working quite well and it did.  I say this because now I am a convert, which surprised me.

There was a Makita 6000J on sale with a couple of tracks and I took advantage of that.  I do have to say that the track system is much easier to setup and achieve consistent repeatable results.  As you state you are new to this I would recommend a track system. 

I can get good results from my shop made guide because I have a reasonable amount of experience working with it and other power tools.  I can do the same work with a track system while applying near-zero skills.  The track makes it nearly impossible to make a bad cut and the plunge mechanism on the saw adds an element of control and safety.

The Makita on Amazon is currently about $540 USD with the additional track and connecting rails.  This would be about ₪1,840 NIS but, I am guessing about the retail price of the tool in Israel so forgive me if I am way off ;-)

[Chestnut]

Is this a brief glimpse of the new gee-dub woodworking shop? Looks like it is very well lit during daytime hours! It's good to hear from someone that has used both systems.

[gee-dub]

24 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

Is this a brief glimpse of the new gee-dub woodworking shop? Looks like it is very well lit during daytime hours! It's good to hear from someone that has used both systems.

  The bottom pic is indeed the current gee-dub woodworking area .  The garage is jammed, the sheds are jammed, come-on concrete.  Thank goodness we only get between 5 and 20 inches of rain all year; 5 being too little and 15 being too much.  Desert living, it's not for everyone

[elrodk]

Track saw or circular saw, get a good blade. I use Frued ultimate plywood blade but I'm sure the other manufacturers have something similar. The blade is where the rubber meets the road. Don't skimp here to avoid tearout and chipping. 

[Naomi]

On 8/12/2020 at 7:24 PM, gee-dub said:

I did much as others have stated with a shop made guide.  I was a firm believer in this system working quite well and it did.  I say this because now I am a convert, which surprised me.

There was a Makita 6000J on sale with a couple of tracks and I took advantage of that.  I do have to say that the track system is much easier to setup and achieve consistent repeatable results.  As you state you are new to this I would recommend a track system. 

I can get good results from my shop made guide because I have a reasonable amount of experience working with it and other power tools.  I can do the same work with a track system while applying near-zero skills.  The track makes it nearly impossible to make a bad cut and the plunge mechanism on the saw adds an element of control and safety.

The Makita on Amazon is currently about $540 USD with the additional track and connecting rails.  This would be about ₪1,840 NIS but, I am guessing about the retail price of the tool in Israel so forgive me if I am way off ;-)

Nice saw horses! So, in Israel, the saw and one track and Makpac box is 2400 NIS. If i order it from England, even with $100 on shipping and maybe another $100 import tax/duties (not sure of the word), I can receive the saw, the box, TWO rails and the converter kit. And I will throw in the bag for about $30 for the guides, too. The markup is nuts (don't ask how much a sheet of ply costs!). But I have been thinking a lot and I think I will do it - the main concerns being efficiency and safety - circ saws scare me! Also, you make an excellent point - not much efficiency difference for track system for you bc you have the experience - and i don't.

[Mark J]

@Naomi what every you decide, we will want to follow your progress, so plan to post on the forum.  

[Naomi]

I just wanted to say thank to to everyone who commented - it was all really helpful, and I appreciate the time it took to comment and share photos. In the end, I decided to go for it. I don't think i can make any assessments for myself regarding efficiency till I use one. The main thing holding me back was money. Well, i did some creative accounting - each month i keep my baby out of daycare can buy me a tracksaw with some money left over. I work at a manuscript foundation, so I can get away with most days working from home - and keep the baby with me - it's really hard, but worth it. So I decided to buy the saw online. I am ordering from the UK - Axminster - I went for the Makita corded with 2 tracks, a connector, and a systainer - $350. Add to that $88 for customs and $124 for shipping, I still am paying less than I would here for the same saw with one track!! The downside is the Makita warranty which is good in the UK for 3 years doesn't extend the minute it leaves the UK. Oddly, the same saw here has 1 year of warranty, and then I am on my own anyway. Anyway, seems worth it - can't wait to try it! Thanks again everyone!