Layout without rulers

[Ronn W]

While the some finish and glue are drying I am  going to babble for a minute-------------- I am finally getting it into my thick head that using a ruler to transfer dimensions or to layout joints is not the best way to go.  More and more I am using the pieces themelves or marking gauges or dividers in my layout work and the resulting fit is getting better the more I do it.  I am using story sticks now as well.  I know that there are a lot more "tricks" out there to help improve my layout skills.  I just keep looking.  Every video I watch I look for that one brief shot that shows how the builder got the fit so perfect.  It is so satisfying when the fit is dead on.

Most of you already knew this.

[Chestnut]

I have not really used dividers that often but they seem like a great tool to get even spacing. I could use 4 or 5 marking gauges though. I really like using them for layout and getting consistent results. I know sliding rules like double squares can be helpful but the knife mark just seems better.  I've started using knife lines for drilling holes as the point of a drill bit drops nicely into the intersection of 2 knife lines.

[sjeff70]

I noticed the same thing. I guess people might think it's needless and boring in a video? It's the same with relative dimensioning. Marc is the only one I've run across who even mentions it. I'm still waiting to run into these subject while I'm going through the entire run of FWW magazine.  

Story sticks seem to be the ticket.

 

[Ronn W]

On 5/23/2022 at 12:54 PM, Chestnut said:

I know sliding rules like double squares can be helpful but the knife mark just seems better

I find myself using a dble square and marking knife when my marking gauges are already set for something else.  Maybe I need a couple more marking gauges.  I have also found that having a small piece of hardwood exactly 1/4" thick (Pick your dimension) to make a mark exactly 1/4" from another mark works very well.  I should make a set of these pieces of varying thicknesses to have them handy.

[Tom King]

I use dividers all the time, and try to stick to whole number fractions for parts.  The whole number fractions don't often result in any kind of even measurement.  

I'll be showing one use of dividers in the handrail thread when I get to that part.

[wtnhighlander]

A sector is another divider-based measurement / calculation tool that is extremely handy, once you see how it works. And don't give up on the ruler just yet. Even ignoring the numbers, a straight edge with evenly-spaced tick marks is really handy for stuff like dividing a board into evenly spaced segments.

@Chestnut, the crossed knife lines for drilling marks is genius. I've been using an awl to punch marks, but still get some offset in woods with strong differences between early & late grain lines. The awl point tends to drop into the softer part of the grain.

[Chestnut]

6 minutes ago, wtnhighlander said:

the crossed knife lines for drilling marks is genius. I've been using an awl to punch marks, but still get some offset in woods with strong differences between early & late grain lines. The awl point tends to drop into the softer part of the grain.

It's that problem that lead me to my solution. It wasn't really an ahh-ha moment i just thought I'd try it and it worked. It's really helpful for euro hinges where the cup distance has a large impact on the reveal for inset doors. Inset doors and drawers just lead to tighter tolerances on everything... my house is a good example of bad reveals in a lot of places.

[joe mendel]

Use a marking knife which is lapped flat on one side and score a line.   No thickness of a pencil line with which to contend.

[Ronn W]

On 5/23/2022 at 2:37 PM, joe mendel said:

No thickness of a pencil line with which to contend.

Yep.  Cut close to a pencil line.  Pare to a scribe line.

[Immortan D]

I often take the no measuring philosophy to extreme measures:

[BillyJack]

I don't use story sticks. I'm so use to doing layouts I just dont..

[Mark J]

On 5/23/2022 at 1:29 PM, Ronn W said:

I have also found that having a small piece of hardwood exactly 1/4" thick (Pick your dimension) to make a mark exactly 1/4" from another mark works very well.  I should make a set of these pieces of varying thicknesses to have them handy.

Consider a set of brass set up bars instead.  Already made and accurate.

[wtnhighlander]

Thick acrylic sheet is a good material for making custom gauge bars that won't change dimension from humidity swings. Cuts cleanly with a good rip blade in the TS.

For less precise needs, there are "gauge bars" built into all sorts of common objects, like carpentry pencils, which are 1/4" thick and 3/4" wide. Typical 12" steel rules (including combo square blades) are 1" wide. I believe combo square heads are typically 1/2" across the flat face.

[Chestnut]

On 5/27/2022 at 7:46 PM, wtnhighlander said:

Thick acrylic sheet is a good material for making custom gauge bars that won't change dimension from humidity swings. Cuts cleanly with a good rip blade in the TS.

If you were making setup bars for plywood wouldn't you want them made out of the same material so they both are changing size so it's always right? If you make it out of plastic wouldn't it be too big 50% of the year and too small the other 50%?

[wtnhighlander]

What's 'plywood'? 

After wandering through the home center sheet stock isle over the weekend, the 'Ply-tinum' marketing name took on a more realistic perspective.  

$$$$

[curlyoak]

I have seen here people talking about the cut list and want to make all the parts to dimensions then built it. Wouldn't know how to do that. It will be close to the dimension but influenced by previous work as the project moves on. So if I found a defect later than sooner I might reduce the size to eliminate the defect IF it has no negative consequences to the project. If I am making a face frame for a cabinet it is measured to the piece not a number...

[joe mendel]

On 6/14/2022 at 5:51 PM, curlyoak said:

I have seen here people talking about the cut list and want to make all the parts to dimensions then built it. Wouldn't know how to do that. It will be close to the dimension but influenced by previous work as the project moves on. So if I found a defect later than sooner I might reduce the size to eliminate the defect IF it has no negative consequences to the project. If I am making a face frame for a cabinet it is measured to the piece not a number...

Personally, I draw everything in a full-scale drawing with absolute details of all aspects of construction.  This process involves precision drafting and measuring.  I make a cut list of every part, its rough size during milling, and final size.  I NEVER use a rule or tape once the building begins.  I do not have errors during construction, because all errors have been resolved on the drafting table with the use of an eraser.  I will simply place a piece of stock against my drawing and mark off of that drawing all placements of joinery.  If my design was correct in the drafting room, the construction will be correct in the machine room.  Just one person's method (?).

(NOTE: This is the front & end view, there is another plan view drawing as well)

[sjeff70]

These are the same methods used in Tolpin's book, Measure Twice, Cut Once. I recently picked up a VG used copy for $5.50, shipped.

[Tom King]

 

[wtnhighlander]

Nice technique, Tom. You hire a camera crew? 

[Tom King]

My BIL with my phone.  He works cheap.

[BillyJack]

You want to draw and pattern anything that is complicated. Not only does it verify it will fit but gives you a chance to see ot full size. I keep a lot of builders paper and masonite around..