curlyoak Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 Early Thursday morning I was washing cloths. Several minutes later I loaded the dryer and turned it on. Then all hell broke loose. Many circuit breakers including all the 220's went off and were toast. I had about half the outlets working. I lost the oven, microwave oven, modem, space heater wifi extender and indoor/outdoor weather station. All that I can find. There might be more. The underlying units were good but the chips fried. By Friday late I had most of the electric in good shape. Power company went high on the pole to fix the neutral line that was badly damaged. I needed that before I could work on getting a new modem up. It was tenuous. I'd have tv and phone and internet for an hour then gone. Constantly on the phones with hateful and worthless xfinity and netgear. It was like a skunk pissing contest with me in the middle. Finally late yesterday morning the xfinity tech shows up. On the ole he finds a cable junction box that was near the power line and was burned. And that I think has ended the underlying problem. The oven I ordered was promised Saturday but I guess that means today at 3 to 5. Cant get a built in micro oven and a counter top micro is on order. My new weather station is scheduled to come today from amazon. And there is another cold snap coming on Friday along with some in-laws. I will need to move a lot of orchids. I have to get the house ready and then go to the airport Friday early. Then cook for all of them... I'm tired... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonPacific Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 That sounds like a hell of a power surge! Did a transmission line arc to the local distribution (forgetting the proper term) or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 I hope somebody else's insurance is going to pay for it. Sounds like it's on the electric company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyoak Posted January 9, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 On 1/9/2023 at 12:45 PM, BonPacific said: Did a transmission line arc to the local distribution yes according to the xfinity tech On 1/9/2023 at 12:55 PM, Tom King said: Sounds like it's on the electric company They sent me a text that read the outage was caused by damaged power company equipment. I am saving my receipts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonPacific Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 On 1/9/2023 at 10:48 AM, curlyoak said: They sent me a text that read the outage was caused by damaged power company equipment. I am saving my receipts. I had the same happen a few years ago. The power company was pretty good about replacing things, though they did try and argue to pay used prices on one or two items. Hopefully yours is decent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyoak Posted January 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 Got the oven. It installs tomorrow morning. And I got my weather station. Up and running. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 I was so afraid that the story would end that all was due to a faulty dryer. Glad you’re halfway up and running. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post wtnhighlander Posted January 10, 2023 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 This is another good illustration of just how fragile the nation's electrical infrastructure can be. Surges are less likely that plain outages, but I recommend to everyone I know, have at least a small generator on hand. Fun facts: California had over 14 million cars registerd as of 2019. If just half of those were Tesla Model 3s, which can charge at 250 kw, and take about 1 hour to go from 3% to 100% charge, that would equal 1.75 TERAwatt-hours of electrical usage, per charge. Total electrical production for California in 2021 was just under 278 terawatt/hrs, so assuming all those Teslas get the equivalent of 1 full charge per month (a conservative guess), that is 21 terawatt/hrs consumed, about 7.5% of the production capacity. *DISCLAIMER* Data used in the calculations above was harvested from multiple internet sources, including government agencies and industry publications. I make no claim to their accuracy. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyoak Posted January 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 I put several hundred pounds of alll of a sudden obsolete on the curb.. Oven and Microwave. And all the devices that failed because they had chips. This seems the opposite of green. Make the chip manufactures build a protective fence around the chips and make then liable if they fail. They might be able to do that now but if they did they would reduce the demand. I would be in favor of going back to non chip products when possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 Or at least plug in replaceable modules. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 They make whole house surge protectors that install in your electrical panel that can help against events like these. I know it may be too late now but it could be good information for everyone. I installed a whole house protector a year or so ago and so far it's not been needed but I appreciate it being there. The electronics on my Furnace and AC alone would be $2,500 to replace. A surge of that nature could impact a lot more than just electronics, it could impact the switches for tools or have other impacts for the electronics on tools. Some panels have a plug on neutral so the installation of a protector is really easy provided space is available. There are universal options that may work for full panels or if your panel isn't a plug on neutral. The protector i bought was $75. Some units are a bit more expensive but may provide better protection. If you don't touch electrical work it's worth calling your electrician about. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 21 minutes ago, Chestnut said: They make whole house surge protectors that install in your electrical panel that can help against events like these. Not quite in cases like this. Those surge suppressors will absorb only so much energy, after which the guts of the protector basically self destruct and then let the surge pass through. The fact that service cables (the neutral at the pole and wiring at the cable box) were burned indicates that the surge was massive and extended, likely way beyond the capacity of whole house protectors. OP, I would have an electrician thoroughly inspect the whole house electrical system for damage. There is likely more that is hidden. There is a type of surge protector for commercial installations that will protect against such events, but when they fail on a surge they also open like a fuse and disconnect the building from the utility. These are an extreme case thing because they also leave the building without power until some very expensive parts are replaced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 8 minutes ago, drzaius said: Not quite in cases like this. Those surge suppressors will absorb only so much energy, after which the guts of the protector basically self destruct and then let the surge pass through. The fact that service cables (the neutral at the pole and wiring at the cable box) were burned indicates that the surge was massive and extended, likely way beyond the capacity of whole house protectors. Can help in some cases, not will help in all cases there are always limits, i can't help but think that this isn't a normal surge though. You probably know more about how they work, i was under the understanding that they didn't absorb the energy but diverted it to the ground bus and thus the ground rod. The unit i have installed is rated for 50kA, i have no way of knowing how larger of surge this was. This is specifically for the Square D product I have installed. Additionally if it doesn't protect against the surge it is another avenue to try and get compensation for lost equipment. It isn't perfect but it's better than literally nothing. I"m a little surprised that the power companies protections didn't kick in here. For years my dad complained about hawks causing chaos for his job because they defecate every time they take off. Quite often the feces would cross phases cause a fault and the protection devices would open the relays for the line. Could be transmission vs distribution as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 On 1/10/2023 at 8:39 AM, curlyoak said: I put several hundred pounds of alll of a sudden obsolete on the curb.. Oven and Microwave. And all the devices that failed because they had chips. This seems the opposite of green. Make the chip manufactures build a protective fence around the chips and make then liable if they fail. They might be able to do that now but if they did they would reduce the demand. I would be in favor of going back to non chip products when possible. In an event like this, I don’t think any amount of protection that would reasonably fit in consumer goods (space and price) would have protected them. Plus, adding those components to every item sold would cause more waste than what gets ruined in these (hopefully) rare events. Making items to be more repair-friendly as Tom suggested would probably be a better route. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyoak Posted January 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 On 1/10/2023 at 9:47 AM, Chestnut said: They make whole house surge protectors that install in your electrical panel that can help against events like these. 2 months ago I bought the surge protector from the power company. A monthly fee of $10. It is placed right behind the meter. Didn't help. On 1/10/2023 at 10:19 AM, drzaius said: I would have an electrician thoroughly inspect the whole house electrical system for damage A quality electrician had 2 four hour sessions. We both think he is done. But something may still show up. On 1/10/2023 at 10:52 AM, JohnG said: Making items to be more repair-friendly as Tom suggested would probably be a better route. I like that. Have an accessible panel to remove and replace chips. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 Replacable modules make sense, but only if the mfg wasn't planning for the device to fail or become obsolete. This way, they get to sell you another whole device! Think of all the good you are doing for the economy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonPacific Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 Eh the replaceable module just makes another connection and housing that could break. It wouldn't likely be much cheaper than replacing the mother or daughter board anyways, which is usually just a few screws and pulling off a metal panel, no harder than other mechanical repairs. But nobody does that because the replacement part is half the price of a new unit entirely and it's never guaranteed to be what's wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 23 hours ago, Chestnut said: i was under the understanding that they didn't absorb the energy but diverted it to the ground bus and thus the ground rod. That's basically right, once a surge reaches a set voltage, the surge components pass the current to ground. But in that circuit, the MOVs, or whatever components used, have some resistance, more than the wire in the circuit. Because of this, they are absorbing the energy of the surge. If the surge presents more than the joule rating of the protector, those components will self destruct. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 The modules are likely replaceable. Trouble is what's cheaper from an insurance perspective hiring a tech to replace electronics and maybe uncover other issues and spend near the same amount of replacement. Then have to pay people up argue with the unsatisfied person that wanted the device replaced. Or pay roughly the same amount to replace and not have the headache? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyoak Posted January 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 I have low knowledge on electricity. This was a neutral failure. I think that is different than ground. And I think it matters for 220....I washed clothes at 110. The second I turned on the dryer, 220, is when all hell broke loose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 Open neutral is a killer. Weird presentation for the inexperienced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark J Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 @curlyoak, did you loose any of your woodworking tools, or just the home appliances? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyoak Posted January 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 On 1/11/2023 at 5:00 PM, Tpt life said: Weird presentation for the inexperienced. What do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyoak Posted January 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 On 1/12/2023 at 12:14 AM, Mark J said: @curlyoak, did you loose any of your woodworking tools, or just the home appliances? I did lose 2 breakers that are for plugs. And a motion switched light attached to the shop. My guess is that there will be other losses will show up later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 hours ago, curlyoak said: What do you mean? Search the web, as it is above my pay grade to appropriately talk through all the potentials, but the short version is it breaks the circuit return, and means you can have varying levels of current on anything connected to an earthing conductor. Most protections in a home are never designed to have that happen at the service entrance level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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