Cliff Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I've heard that a #4 can be used as a jointer plane. Is this true? How does one do this? I have a 1929 Stanley. It's not even set up right for a smoother, let alone any other function. But what I need is to level a panel. If this won't do what I need to do, can anyone recommend a relatively decent jointer plane? Or a jack plane (but again, don't know how to set it up to do jointing.) I'm wondering how much pain and suffering I have to go through to get something like a current Stanley, Grizzly etc up to snuff? Appreciate any assistance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdabroxx Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Are you jointing a long edge or a flattening a panel? Really it could do either. I would recommend you watch some of Paul Sellers videos, he loves the #4 as a do all plane. That's pretty much where I have learned all I know about hand planes. I am lucky though and have a couple #8's and #5's to use too so I bounce around a bit, mostly from boredom when working on my workbench. I like Pauls videos in that they are a no nonsense kinda deal. He doesn't make you think you need a bunch of fancy tools to get the job done, you just need sharp simple tools to complete the task at hand. I've linked to a video series where he makes an entire workbench with the #4 as the only plane he uses. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Hi The #4 could be used for jointing if the panels are very short but it is not a jointing plane. Taking a stand back for a moment the objective of jointing is to get a straight and true edge. You can use what you want but jointing planes evolved for a reason. Vintage Stanley or the like is a good place to start. Gotta ask yourself how much edge jointing do you need to do and how long are the edges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 As adopted, bench plane nomenclature is a reflection on the size of the typical project – i.e., a mix of “full-sized furniture”. Don’t get too hung-up on names, numbers, etc... It’s about the size of the stock, the length of the plane’s sole and how the plane is tuned... Bench planes do three things (depending on which religion you belong to) well – just not well all at the same time... They can efficiently remove stock... With the desired amount of stock removed, they can straighten/true/whatever faces and edges. And once true, they can smooth the edges and faces as desired... To be efficient, you need one plane of each purpose --- but which one? Answer: depends on the size of the project... For example, if you build decorative boxes, then the #5 could be your ‘jointer’, the #4 the ‘stock remover’ and the #3 as ‘smoother’... If you build dining tables, then the #8 might be your jointer, the #6 the stock remover and the #5 your smoother... There are exceptions that prove the rule – again, don’t get hung-up on numbers or names... It's about length and tuning.... There are many many experienced craftsman who maintain two (or more) #4s and #5s and #6s – one tuned for general bench work and one tuned as a smoother... They just pick the size best suited to the project at hand... And there are very respected craftsman that use a 5 ½ for just about everything and some restrict themselves to a #7... To each his/her own... So think about the projects you want to build, and then worry about the planes in your till... Focus on sole length and how you decide to tune it... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 My apologies, this is to flatten a panel face, I already glued 4 8" cedar boards together. They came from the lumber yard with 1 face and 2 edges surfaced. I ran them through my planer to clean up the rough face. The original surfaced face must not have been as flat as I thought as I have crowns. Either that or my planer cut each board a little differently. So now I have a panel with high spots. I have a smoothing plane, I just put a Hock blade it in sharpened at 30 degrees, bevel down. It does not perform at all how it should so I'm sure I have it set up wrong. And the sole may need flattening as well. I ended up using the block plane (a terrible $10 Lowes plane that I properly sharpened) to knock down some high spots, but I still have a pretty messy panel. Luckily this isn't important. it's just a dividing wall on the inside of a cart and will be covered with eclipse board. But the day is coming fast where I will need smooth panels. The current panel is 32" wide by about 32" long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Are you jointing a long edge or a flattening a panel? Really it could do either. I would recommend you watch some of Paul Sellers videos, he loves the #4 as a do all plane. That's pretty much where I have learned all I know about hand planes. I am lucky though and have a couple #8's and #5's to use too so I bounce around a bit, mostly from boredom when working on my workbench. I like Pauls videos in that they are a no nonsense kinda deal. He doesn't make you think you need a bunch of fancy tools to get the job done, you just need sharp simple tools to complete the task at hand. I've linked to a video series where he makes an entire workbench with the #4 as the only plane he uses. I will watch these. The last one I watched right before my first sharpening. He's drunk if he thinks I can do it without a guide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdabroxx Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I will watch these. The last one I watched right before my first sharpening. He's drunk if he thinks I can do it without a guide It's not that tough really, you can do it without a guide. Have faith in your abilities. Marking the edge with a sharpie before you start helps too to make sure you are getting the angle right. Then just get a bur all the way across the back and you know you have a good edge the full width of the iron. I convex my irons a bit, easier than keeping them perfectly flat (bevel down planes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I would expect your #4 to be just the ticket to knock down those high spots, but it does need to be set up properly. The Paul Sellers videos will show you how to sharpen the blade and put a camber on the outer edges of the blade. You will need to make sure the sole is flat, but you also need to make sure that the lateral adjustment lever is set to level the blade or you'll cut deeper on one side and leave grooves in the panel. The best thing to do would be to setup a piece of pine or polar and practice on it as you tune up and learn to use the plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardA Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Lawyers and Doctors never start out as Lawyers or Doctors... They go through their entire career practicing! That's how you improve, practice, practice and more of it. Then you'll pass on! Planes are temperamental things , sorta like wives.... They have to be used and set up in ways that convince them to do what you want done..... It takes Practise.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Could not agree more Richard, no tool ever made anything by itself. Practice essential! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Practice does not make perfect gents, no matter how many times it's said. Only perfect practice, makes perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Practice makes permanent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Practice with planes after poutine makes poonami. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I would expect your #4 to be just the ticket to knock down those high spots, but it does need to be set up properly. The Paul Sellers videos will show you how to sharpen the blade and put a camber on the outer edges of the blade. You will need to make sure the sole is flat, but you also need to make sure that the lateral adjustment lever is set to level the blade or you'll cut deeper on one side and leave grooves in the panel. The best thing to do would be to setup a piece of pine or polar and practice on it as you tune up and learn to use the plane. I am having trouble leveling the blade. Right now the plane seems do one of the following - make saw dust, leave gouges on the edges, and the groove just on one side. So I know I need to do the camber, I feel like I might have the chip breaker (I hope that is the term) too high on the blade, the sole looked pretty good, but I'll double check it and mess with it if need be. I haven't checked the plate the blade sits on (frog?) for flatness, I hope its fine cause I am not sure I have the tools to fix it. My first several times using a block plane was a near disaster. Now I think I'm at the point where if I had a good one instead of my $10 one, it would be working fantastically. And thats why I asked for help here, my plan is to pick up the lie neilsen rabbeting block plane, and I don't want to have to delay that by getting a jack plane or jointer first, especially if the smoother will work for me. Probably six months from now I'll be in this panel situation again with an 8' x 25" desk, so I need to get the kinks worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 If you're using a Stanley #4, it has a lateral adjuster to align the blade straight in the mouth of the sole. You need to play with that...it's the reason you're getting gouges on one side and no cut at all on the other...your blade is skewed. If you're getting dust instead of shavings, most likely your blade isn't sharp. When it comes to planes, only SHARP is sharp. Anything less than SHARP will make you wanna throw that plane in the trash. You'll know when you're SHARP because you'll detect a moistness in your nether regions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 YouTube is your friend. These are simple but complex tools, meaning that each variable is simple but together you have a complex system. There are some tasks that are "get out and do it" tasks. I would not recommend that for a new plane user. "Waste" the time watching some people set up different planes even breyond the Stanleys and get a feel for isolating variables. Camber will indeed help some with track marks. Eric is dead on as always about SHARP. The frog does not matter so much with regard to flatness, but it needs to bealigned right. You have good start. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 For woodworking, sharp is relative. It’s more about ‘sharp enough’ for the operation at hand. A mortise chisel doesn’t need to be as sharp as a paring chisel. A scrub plane doesn’t have to be as sharp as a smoother. For reasonable well-behaved stock, you know the plane is tuned and the iron is sharp when you can take an even, full-width shaving of the desired thickness... Dust is a sign on not being sharp enough. Gouging is a sign of the planed not being tuned.... As for YouTube – Remember the Knight in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, “Choose wisely”.... Most of the woodworking information on the internet is contradictory, misleading or outright wrong. I’ve seen very few videos that could be considered ‘trusted source’. If you want to learn about sharpening, hand planes, planning technique, etc --- I would attend a free LN hand-tool event (they’re not really free because you’ll end-up buying something), take a class at a local Woodcraft, get some DVDs by Chris Schwarz, etc.. The last place to learn this stuff is on the internet, except WTO of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Yeah, I earned that wrist slap. I think Ihave picked up the best universal tips from LN and Heritage postings. I also meant that to refer to plane setup. Sharpening runs the gamut on the Tube in some fairly hairy ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 It’s very frustrating to see newbies struggle through internet-knowledge... There’s good stuff out there – LN’s Channel, Woodworking Heaven, etc... GH’s got some nice videos... But sooo much is just bad... I know it's unfair, but if you stick with the major players, you’ll mostly be OK – it's the videos by joe-DIY that are the real issue -- some are just fine --- but some present really bad info... And some raise safety issues... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I am having trouble leveling the blade. Right now the plane seems do one of the following - make saw dust, leave gouges on the edges, and the groove just on one side. So I know I need to do the camber, I feel like I might have the chip breaker (I hope that is the term) too high on the blade, the sole looked pretty good, but I'll double check it and mess with it if need be. I haven't checked the plate the blade sits on (frog?) for flatness, I hope its fine cause I am not sure I have the tools to fix it. Sharp fixes a lot of things so you might want to revisit that as the others have suggested. I've gone through three different methods of sharpening and they all led to a keen edge so don't get too caught up on which road to follow, use what you have for now. If your goal is a smoothing plane don't camber the entire blade, just the corners. You want to take a wide cut with a flat bottom and edges that feather out smoothly. If you're not sure what I mean watch this video and observe how he sharpens the blade flat then at the end works just the corners. https://youtu.be/vvTcReENk9g I'm surprised more sources don't discuss leveling of the blade and the serious implications it has for smoothing of large surfaces or planing an edge perpendicular. How you do this is you put a thin piece of stock into your vise then take a cut with the left side and the right side of the plane. Slowly nudge the lateral adjustment lever towards the side that is cutting a thicker shaving. Use your senses of feel and hearing just as much as the visual cues of the shaving being taken as your indicator of when both sides are taking an equal cut. Now that you're set up handle the plane gently so as to not knock the blade out of alignment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I *think* the plane is properly sharp. I picked up one of those honing guides (the $12 Larson one on amazon, which i regret because it's a pain in the ass) and sharpened it. I have 3 DMT diamond stones and a synthetic Norton waterstone with 4000/8000 sides (if you can't tell, I'm just dumping all the money ever into this hobby in the last 3 months and that's why I've ran out of funds to purchase LN products.) I basically used the same method as I did with the chisels, and they rock now. I put the plane blade in at 1 3/16" which the guide said would get me 30 degrees. I ran the flat of the blade on all the stones, progressing up the grits. But here is something I just thought of - if the bevel is down on this blade, should I be flattening the bevel side or the other side? Seems like a stupid question, but I suddenly am unsure. I agree completely with the amount of frustrating info out there. For instance, most videos just say, "Once your plane is properly set up, this is a breeze" then they show you how to use it. Ok, but you didn't show me how to set it up or even what that means. Finally I ran across a long talky video Matt Vanderlist did about smoothing planes and that helped me quite a bit. And again, often you see "well, you can use a jack or smoother for whatever you want, jointing, smoothing, etc but you have to set it up differently, or use different blades sharpened at different angles" and those details do not get discussed. I suppose for some this type of knowledge is very common if you've never held a hand plane in your life - you don't even know what you don't know. That being said, I hope to have time tonight to watch the Paul Sellers videos and then reevaluate my situation and see what I can do to resolve it with the tips you guys have given me. You've been very informative and hopefully I'll figure this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 But here is something I just thought of - if the bevel is down on this blade, should I be flattening the bevel side or the other side? Seems like a stupid question, but I suddenly am unsure. Doesn't matter, you still polish the back and make sure the last 1/4" or so is flat and sharpen the bevel to about 30-degrees. The cutting edge is formed by both faces, not just the beveled face. Too high of a bevel angle and the heel hits the wood instead of the cutting edge, too low of a bevel angle and the edge is not well supported and will tend to chip and break. The 30-degree angle is just a happy medium for bevel-down Stanley pattern planes. You really do set up your plane to a specific purpose rather than say that a #3 plane is for "X" and a #4 for "Y" and a #5 is used for task "Z". For example, imagine a #4 plane with the frog set forward to close the mouth, the cap iron set very close to the cutting edge, and a finely polished blade. This plane will tackle tough grain and leave a very smooth finish, but would be lousy at thicknessing a board or cleaning up a rough saw cut as it is limited to a very fine cut. On the other hand a #4 with an open mouth and cap iron set back 1/16" from the cutting edge is good at hogging off material, but not so good at handling wild or reversing grain and creating a smooth surface. I've really enjoyed learning from Paul Sellers even if some of the information is scattered throughout project videos instead of condensed into a single catch-all video on how to use a plane. He is very good about showing how to get started with a a minimum set of affordable tools which is in stark contrast to the cost of equipping the Schwarz anarchist tool chest. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted July 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 Well it took me nearly a month to get back to it, but today - So.. what happened? The ... I think it's the chip breaker? The piece with the curved end that goes on top of the blade - I had it extended past the blade. I was using it to try to plane a board. Not the blade. Wow. Thanks for the help folks. I learned a ton from the posted videos and feel at least a little more confident using a #4. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 The ... I think it's the chip breaker? The piece with the curved end that goes on top of the blade - I had it extended past the blade. I was using it to try to plane a board. Not the blade. Wow. I wouldn't tell anyone that... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 I'm no expert but if your chip breaker fits through your mouth, it may be a bit too open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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