Quality in value?

[bleedinblue]

It just seems the extra heft would be helpful.  Is that wrong?

[Tpt life]

13 minutes ago, bleedinblue said:

It just seems the extra heft would be helpful.  Is that wrong?

Is this a 4 vs 4.5 question? The 4.5 is wider so harder to push. If it is a mass question, woodies would seem to indicate  not really. 

[bleedinblue]

2 minutes ago, C Shaffer said:

Is this a 4 vs 4.5 question? The 4.5 is wider so harder to push. If it is a mass question, woodies would seem to indicate  not really. 

Yeah, I should have quoted Eric.  He asked why I was leaning toward the 4 1/2 over the 4.  I've not used a quality smoother, so if the extra size of the 4 1/2 isn't a benefit I'll order the 4.  I'm probably pulling the trigger within the next few minutes.

[Eric.]

I have both and use the #4 about 99% of the time. My 4.5 has a middle pitch frog and it's great for figured woods and exotics. But for a daily driver I'd go with a #4 for sure. 4.5 will wear you out.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[bleedinblue]

Ok, good to know.  The Veritas #4 is out of stock, just my luck.

[drzaius]

1 hour ago, Eric. said:

Frank, is there a particular reason you're stuck on the 4.5 rather than the 4?

No particular reason other than I just like the feel of it better. It was my 1st plane, other than a couple of block planes.

Do we have 2 Franks here?

[Tom King]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STANLEY-No-4C-Smoothing-Plane-TYPE-11-Good-User-or-Collectable-/272553905864?hash=item3f757a8ec8:g:pScAAOSwopRYjSXa

Get the iron the seller has with no pitting.   I've used one much like that for many hours, You can find them cheaper, but that usually comes with work needed.  

 I'd use the high dollar ones if they were given to me, but the only reason I buy a new model plane is because either it wasn't available before, or because it costs less than an old one (example: new shooting planes, mortising planes, and side trimmers cost less than the old ones because good old ones are harder to come by than the more common planes).

I have one of each, and several of some, but I'm not one to care what type number it is, or when it was made.  I need the planes to work, and only care about the work they do. 

[HuxleyWood]

I won't buy WR planes out of principle considering the way they "borrowed" the IP for their initial offerings.  That said they are "decent" but even tuned still have too much backlash and just fall short of the premium planes, but they do fill a middle ground for new planes that was lacking prior to their introduction.

I have an unusual take on planes for beginners, I think a beginner is best served with a high quality, basically ready to go out of the box, plane like LN and Veritas (as well as the true high end planes).  This way a beginner actually knows the bar they are looking to achieve when they tune up old or cheaper planes.  It is hard to know what good is until you actually experience good.  

[Pondhockey]

1 hour ago, HuxleyWood said:

...I have an unusual take on planes for beginners, I think a beginner is best served with a high quality, basically ready to go out of the box, plane like LN and Veritas (as well as the true high end planes).  This way a beginner actually knows the bar they are looking to achieve when they tune up old or cheaper planes.  It is hard to know what good is until you actually experience good.  

I may be the beginner that you are describing, and you are right.  I have been tuning old gifts and a couple I got from Ebay.   My best effort results in long but thick shavings (5-7 thousandths).  The surface that I leave has very small nubs - it is not as good as sanding would produce.  One of the Ebay planes had a buggered mouth, so I believe it to be useless.

Next time I'm at Woodcraft, I'll seek to try out what they have.  By the way, here's a plug for them:  the owner of the regional shop described the differences between planes (new tech and old, in particular - note the iron thickness) without being overly judgmental (he does prefer the thicker steel of some newer models.)

[Ronn W]

I bought a new Wood River #4 recently,  very happy with it.   I will say that I wanted a decent plane but did not want to spend the money on a Veritas.  I think it was the right decision for me.....at least until a shinier object catches my eye.

[bleedinblue]

Even before Ronn's comment, I'm pretty well back to picking up a Wood River, though now I may drop down to a #4.  I should have a couple of days to see how it will perform before Lee Valley's free shipping sale ends. 

[CandorLush]

9 hours ago, bleedinblue said:

Even before Ronn's comment, I'm pretty well back to picking up a Wood River, though now I may drop down to a #4.  I should have a couple of days to see how it will perform before Lee Valley's free shipping sale ends. 

woodcraft has free shipping now too

[bleedinblue]

3 minutes ago, CandorLush said:

woodcraft has free shipping now too

I'll be near the local store tomorrow so I'll just pick it up from there.  I'll want to clarify their return policy anyway so I can make sure I can return it if it sucks after I've worked on the iron a bit.

[collinb]

On 2/15/2017 at 9:42 AM, Eric. said:

You get what you pay for.

But I think the problem is knowing what to pay for.

The learning curve might involve a learning purchase. Try one out. Figure out the nuances. The get the right one -- the right one for his needs. At least in this case that's a relatively inexpensive option.

[Tpt life]

My only beef with Wood River is philosophical. The IP theft is bunk to me as bedrock was the IP borrowed. I have never seen anything that would indicate otherwise. The fettling I did was not functional but aesthetic. Backlash is not an issue peculiar to WR as technique on vintage planes makes it a non issue. That said, I don't experience backlash. The honing I did before use was a skill that will be required many times over the length of the life of the tool. Purchasing the plane does involve an overseas money path. That is the only philosophical objection I have. I would like to see guys and gals in my own country continue to manufacture tools. For this reason only, my one WR is likely my last. 

[Llama]

15 minutes ago, collinb said:

But I think the problem is knowing what to pay for.

 

I disagree. If you know you/re going to keep woodworking the research has been done. 

19 hours ago, bleedinblue said:

It just seems the extra heft would be helpful.  Is that wrong?

Yes. The weight of a hand plane has nothing to do with its performance.

[Minnesota Steve]

On 2/15/2017 at 8:22 AM, Knox wood said:

So I've been piecing together my basic foundation of some hand and power tools for woodworking. But as I am researching some hand planes, I realize that it seems only 2 options. Go big, or go home. I was curious if anyone has had a good quality plane, that was for a "value" price. For example, I've looked at a 9" bench plane at HD for about $30 made by 'Buck Bros'. Looks nice enough, but a lot of bad reviews. I just wonder if it is the user, or the tool itself? I know you can peek n tweak it before use but.... I also don't want to drop $80 at woodcraft for something I might not like using in future. Thoughts...?

I bought a Buck Bros smoothing plane from HD.   It's terrible.   I spent a lot of time trying to tune it, and I can't get it to work at all.

The sad thing is, they used to sell a Buck Bros Jack plane.   That was my first plane, and after I spent some time tuning it, it works pretty well.   It is a rough plane... a jack plane for taking good size shavings off flattening boards.

I have a Stanley 12-920 block plane, which works reasonably well but I had to spend a lot of time on it with a file to get the adjustable shoe to sit flush.

My first good plane is a Woodriver #4, and it's fantastic.   Woodcraft frequently has their planes on sale and the bench planes are good bargains.   It was about like my Buck Bros out of the box, until I sharpened the blade... Now it's fantastic.

I am probably going to order a Veritas LAJ this next week though, as I want to make a shooting board.

 

[collinb]

2 hours ago, Llama said:

I disagree. If you know you/re going to keep woodworking the research has been done.

Much, yes. But suitability to the task at hand is a big thing with all tools. There are few givens here and I realize that it's not all just opinion. Some swear by SawStop and others by Unisaw. I suspect some of that is opinion and some of that is suitability. Sometimes an old Stanley is more than adequate and BCTW unnecessary. But sometimes the precision or improved features of newer units is advantageous. Those things seems to be suitability questions, and I include fit to the user as a part of suitability. If a tool doesn't feel good in your hand it might be too difficult either to use or to learn on.

Learning suitability takes time. I'd counsel a person to not buy cheap or expensive but start in the middle. At least there one has something that isn't a battle to use and makes a great learning tool. Then, when suitability is understood (when the direction and focus of his craft takes shape) then he can get what he wants and do so wisely.

[Llama]

3 hours ago, collinb said:

Some swear by SawStop and others by Unisaw. I suspect some of that is opinion and some of that is suitability. Sometimes an old Stanley is more than adequate and BCTW unnecessary.

To me it's not so much a suitability issue as you suggest. Nobody "needs" a BCTW anything. I have them because I want them. Same thing as saying that nobody "needs" a Sawstop. That is a preference. However, anyone operating a tablesaw needs one that doesn't wobble and shake when it's being used. Nobody will tell you that Powermatic makes a bad saw. You might prefer one over the other, but a forum can't answer that question. You need to put your hands on one.

As far as fit in the hand, Veritas makes nice hand planes but I will never own one. I don/t like how they feel in my hand. Others like them. I also prefer low angle planes, some people don't like those.. That is a feel thing, but both would be suitable for the task at shaving a board. Not having safe and reliable equipment is someone asking for trouble or a tough time because they are fighting their equipment. Reliable meaning it works when started, or it holds an edge when sharpened. 

 

[treeslayer]

48 minutes ago, Llama said:

Reliable meaning it works when started, or it holds an edge when sharpened. 

wise words, i want tools that work, and i hate to buy the same thing twice because the first one was sub-standard and didn't work as advertised. i apply this to most things, my wife says i want the best of everything and i tell her i don't want to buy 10 junk garden hoses, i want to get the best one and be done with it. i would rather have one great plane instead of 5 that are junk and don't fit my needs.

[HuxleyWood]

9 hours ago, C Shaffer said:

My only beef with Wood River is philosophical. The IP theft is bunk to me as bedrock was the IP borrowed. I have never seen anything that would indicate otherwise. The fettling I did was not functional but aesthetic. Backlash is not an issue peculiar to WR as technique on vintage planes makes it a non issue. That said, I don't experience backlash. The honing I did before use was a skill that will be required many times over the length of the life of the tool. Purchasing the plane does involve an overseas money path. That is the only philosophical objection I have. I would like to see guys and gals in my own country continue to manufacture tools. For this reason only, my one WR is likely my last. 

 

The problem is the original WR planes were not copies of the Bedrock but copies of the LN's updating of the bedrock.  They were subsequently changed after LN pulled their line from WC.  There was plenty of documentation of this 8-9 years ago but I don't have it on hand but it is certainly still in the ether if someone cares about it enough to look.

My suggestion of a fully prepped and ready to go plane for a beginner is not that they should not or will not gain those skills (sharpening is an absolute necessity) but it gives them a tactile and visual benchmark of how a plane should function.  I have used many novices planes who were quite happy with them but they had no idea how much performance they were leaving on the table.  While this is true with many things in life the difference in cost between an OK plane and a very good plane is subjectively quite small where with many other items the divide in cost is far too much to suggest a new user jump to that level.  

[bleedinblue]

Not that anyone was on their edge of their seat, but I talked to a manager at Woodcraft today about my concerns about buying a WR plane.  He told me he'd accept it as a return if I can't sharpen it to my liking.  So, I bought the #4.  No chance to play with it tonight, but hopefully sometime in the next few days.

[gee-dub]

13 hours ago, bleedinblue said:

Not that anyone was on their edge of their seat, but I talked to a manager at Woodcraft today about my concerns about buying a WR plane.  He told me he'd accept it as a return if I can't sharpen it to my liking.  So, I bought the #4.  No chance to play with it tonight, but hopefully sometime in the next few days.

Now that is a good store manager working to connect with his customer base; kudos to him.  Since you don't really have anything to compare it to, just focus on how the plane feels and performs for you.  Regardless of what any of us offer as opinion, if the tool or method works for you, it works.

In a forum environment you will sometimes pick up "opinions" based on a narrow comparison band.  Take me for instance, I can only comment from experience on Millers Falls, Stanley, Lie Nielsen, Veritas and some 'also rans' like Ohio and Union.  If I am offering an opinion on a Wood River plane I have no basis for it.  Alas, a sample of one is no sample at all.

[bleedinblue]

It might be a mistake, but it's low risk.  If the plane works well I'll buy the collection of WR's.  If it sucks, I'll return it and go all LN from here on out....the collection will just be built much slower, lol.

[Llama]

14 minutes ago, bleedinblue said:

go all LN from here on out

YOLO