Problem for serpentine sideboard

[Ronn W]

As I was shaping the legs for this project - see journal post for Serpentine Sideboard - I realized that the African mahogany  is really quite light in color and that I will probaly not get the contrast that I am looking for between the mahogany and the holly stringing that I will be using.  Damn.  So the question(s) is (are):  Is there any way to darken the mahogany and not darken the stringing.  I am taking into account that the finish will darken the mahogany a little.

1.  Stain before stringing - any little tiny tears in the mahogany from cutting grooves for stringing will show as unstained.  Scraping or sanding the holly down flush will probably also remove some stain.  I will experiment with this.  Maybe couple of light coats of a finish will gain me few 1/1000's of thickness to allow for careful scraping or sanding.

2.  Stain after stringing - requires covering the the 1/32" wide stringing with a coat of something to protect it from stain - Almost impossible.

3.  Build it and hope the time and sunlight darken the mahogany.

4.  Ammonia fume the legs with stringing installed - I have no idea what that would look like. 

5.  Start over from scratch with walnut. I would keep the mahogany crotch doors and-yet-to-be-built drawers.  Hundreds of $$ wasted on mahogany.  Sell the larger pieces?

6. Other ideas?

Help.  I am open to suggestions.

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas.

 

 

[Dave H]

I built a cutting board for my daughter for Christmas I was making it in a checker board pattern, the walnut I was using had a lot of sap wood on one edge of the 8 quarter board I worried that the contrast against the maple would look weird so I wiped some mineral spirits on both pieces and I liked the contrast of the sap wood and the maple it was an interesting pairing my point is mineral spirits wiped on the wood will show what it will look like after the finish is applied good luck. Oh and my daughter loved her cutting board.

[gee-dub]

Using colorants with contrasting woods is always a challenge.  From your other thread it looks like you have not laid in the stringing yet so the advantage is all yours.  I would lay the stringing in late in the game.  This may require you to mostly finish the piece with some parts not assembled.  Having things like the legs free will make flushing the stringing to the surface easier but is not absolutely necessary, your call.

You have done enough work that if it was me I would near-finish the mahogany parts, color them, seal them (a barrier of shellac could work for this), mostly assembly and then lay the stringing in before final assembly and top coat.  There, that was really easy to say .  Seriously though, coloring and sealing the darker material before mating the lighter material is something I always try to do with contrasting woods.  Clean up after the fact can be done but, for me, it is not super predictable so I try to avoid it.

[Tpt life]

If you have installed the stringing, as big a pain as it may be, consider removing it and doing it again. 

[pkinneb]

Ronn you might try fuming a sample. It would definitely darken it and I think it may go deep enough that you could carefully scrape the holly after and still not go through the fumed layer.

[Ronn W]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:35 PM, pkinneb said:

Ronn you might try fuming a sample. It would definitely darken it and I think it may go deep enough that you could carefully scrape the holly after and still not go through the fumed layer.

When you use a ammonia for fuming, what concentration do you use.  Could you use household strength and just let it work longer?

[Tom King]

I would get the right kind of Mahogany and start over.  You'll end up using this stuff for something else.  I'm afraid otherwise it would just be chasing your tail on these.

It's going to be a multi-lifetime cherished piece when you finish it.

[pkinneb]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:51 PM, Ronn W said:

When you use a ammonia for fuming, what concentration do you use.  Could you use household strength and just let it work longer?

This is what I use stronger than household but no where near as toxic as industrial. If I recall its under $10 at any Ace Hardware. 

 

[Ronn W]

One more question.   This is a very large piece, especially the top.  Any reason why I cannot fume the pieces prior to assembly?  Will the fuming interefere with gluing afterwards?

[wtnhighlander]

@Ronn W, have you considered using something like dyed poplar for the stringing? I've seen Kyle Toth use thick poplar veneer dyed black (soaked through) for some very nice effects. Could be a distinctive option for the stringing.

[pkinneb]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:07 PM, Ronn W said:

One more question.   This is a very large piece, especially the top.  Any reason why I cannot fume the pieces prior to assembly?  Will the fuming interfere with gluing afterwards?

Hmm that's a good question. I only have experience fuming finished pieces. Having said that I cannot see why it wouldn't I mean its not a finish perse just changing the color of the wood. I would definitely test that first though. It would be interesting to see if taping off the joint would block the reaction as well.

[treeslayer]

I would like to see you try the fuming, if just to satisfy my curiosity, I think that’s the best option 

[Coop]

I can check with my wife as she’s darn good at fuming! 

[Tpt life]

Rob the organist fumed the lumber before assembly. No idea if he hangs around, or if I saw that here or on YT. 

[Ronn W]

OK.  So I have been experimenting with some way of darkening the African Mahogany.

1.    I tried staining the piece before installing the stringing.  The stain only penetrates a few mil.  This makessanding or scraping the stringing impossibpe without removeing some of the stain.  No good.

2/  I played around with fuming.  I use household ammonis in a freezerbag with a small piece of wood.  Fuming works and it penetrates more than the stain but this particular mahogany turns salmon or pink when fumed.  Realy not the color I am looking for.

3.  I tried baking soda in water  a) 1 Tbsp in 16 oz of water.  Same result as the fuming and nearly the same color.  b) 2 tbsp baking soda in 16 oz of water.  Darker but still pink.  c)  I made a paste of water and baking soda the consistency of drywall joint compound.  Spread it onand let it stand unitl it started to dry. Then  wiped it off.  I got darker pink and it accentuated the grain to the point where it looked like red streaks on pink.  Interesting but not acceptable.  The baking soda penterates a little better than the stain but not as much as the fuming.  Still difficult to sand the stringing without affecting the color.

4.    I am waiting for a sunny day so that I can set a piece out in the sunlight just to see what happens.  My weather app says that we won't reealy have much sun unilt about Jan 1.

At this point the project is on hold.  I am seriouly considering starting over with walnut.  I will keep the veneered curved doors.  Those will look fine with walnut.

I may have some 5/4 and 8/4 mahogany for sale.  SEe also my thread on the Serpentine Sideboard under project journals.

[treeslayer]

Thanks for all the info Ronn, sometimes you have to find out what doesn’t work before you find out what does, very helpful to all who are on here 

[Ronn W]

I really like working with mahogany.  Too bad the African is such an ugly color for furniture.   I think I would rather use Sapele.   Maybe someday I will spring for some Genuine  (Honduran) and try that.

[wtnhighlander]

@Ronn W, I've never used African Mahogany, but I have used sodium hydroxide lye to treat cherry and red oak. I mix a weak-ish solution of lye and water, and brush it liberally on the raw wood. The color change can easily penetrate deeply enough to withstand moderate scraping or sanding, although multiple applications might be needed. 

On cherry, 3 or 4 applications yeilds a deep, rich red-brown (very red), that shifts toward the browner tones of classic aged cherry over several weeks. Red oak takes on the color of dark tea. Tried it on mulberry once, it turned the straw gold of the freshly cut board almost immediately to the milk chocolate brown that it eventually turns with exposure.

You might give it a try, just to see how dark the wood may eventually get on its own. Common Draino brand crystal drain cleaner is what I have used,but it has some blue gunk in it that I skim off before dipping a brush, and aluminum shavings to avoid.  If you wind up going this route, a source of clean sodium hydroxide would be simpler.

Remember to neutralize any active lye after the surface dries, by wiping it down with vinegar and water. Otherwise, your topcoat will suffer.

[Ronn W]

So I had a sunny day and set acopule of pieces of mahogany out to sunbathe.  After 4 hours there was no noticeable change in color either darker or lighter.

So decision made:  I am going to start over (except for the doors with walnut.  I am working on a design of another piece, a chest of drawers on legs, to use at least some of the mahogany.

[roughsawn]

Have you decided what wood the new piece will be made of?

[Ronn W]

On 1/11/2024 at 7:11 PM, roughsawn said:

Have you decided what wood the new piece will be made of?

I am using the mahogany that was purchase for the serpentine sideboard to build a 3 drawer bowfront chest of drawers on legs of a similare design.  I will reuse the serpentine legs and cut down the rails.  This piece will have no stringing or bell flowers and will be stained to darken the mahogany.

The new version of the serpentine sideboard will be walnut, but that is on hold for now.

[Chet]

Hey Ronn did you try Garnet Shellac on your mahogany?

[Ronn W]

On 1/17/2024 at 11:10 AM, Chet said:

Hey Ronn did you try Garnet Shellac on your mahogany?

I have not...yet.