jadedj Posted September 21, 2018 Report Share Posted September 21, 2018 Hi Guys - new to woodwork but really enjoying it! I bought this antique table a few months ago and have been working on it ever since. I went through the laborious process of stripping, sanding, stripping some more, etc. Well after 3 or 4 coats of oil-base stain (it was summer in NY so pretty humid) it looked like it was time to add the polyurethane and I thought I'd be eating on it in a few weeks! Not so fast. I started with the legs (thank God) and after applying a coat of poly and letting it dry, there were odd white flakes that showed up. I've attached what they look like, I've also attached a side-by-side comparison of the one leg that just has stain, compared with the poly leg. It's very odd and I don't understand what's happening. Does anyone know what that is? Not sure how old the table is, any advise would be much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted September 22, 2018 Report Share Posted September 22, 2018 Looks like eczema to me. I've got no idea how an antique table gets a skin condition <grin> Could be something left on the legs , did you rinse or neutralize any stripper /chemicals before you started with the stain? I haven't done any refinishing in years but it seems like something wasn't compatible with a residue left behind. Not sure what do do except start over . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadedj Posted September 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 I was able to scratch off a lot of the "flakes," which turned out to be air bubbles. Now the only question is WHY they're occurring and if they'll show up on the table top too. Legs I'm not that worried about but the top I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat60 Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 I would test out a area that doesn't show before you do the top. I wish I had done as Steve said on a top that I refinished for someone. Ended up to be a do over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 A few questions to help (hopefully) narrow down the root issue- How long did the last coat of stain cure before applying the poly? You mentioned that the stain was oil-based, was the poly water- or oil-based? How was the poly applied? Were the stain and poly purchased for this project or left over from previous projects. If left over, how old are they, and have they been exposed to extreme temperatures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadedj Posted September 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 Unfortunately, there really isn't anywhere I can "test" the poly or the satin as the underside isn't finished; the only option I think I have is trying a corner but as the inlays are different pieces of wood (there are at least 5 on the ends; the two sleeves have 3 each), the stain nor the poly will be uniform. 2 minutes ago, JohnG said: A few questions to help (hopefully) narrow down the root issue- How long did the last coat of stain cure before applying the poly? - about a week, maybe less You mentioned that the stain was oil-based, was the poly water- or oil-based? - oil How was the poly applied? - brush Were the stain and poly purchased for this project or left over from previous projects. If left over, how old are they, and have they been exposed to extreme temperatures? - both newly purchased Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 I think i got it. You brushed on the poly, what was your technique like? Did you slather it on like paint? If so that's not a good way to get poly applies especially the thick brushing type. I've found poly needs a good brush that is tailored to the finish. Sadly the brushes i used when i brushed poly cost more than the finish, which leads to clean your brush well. My technique for applying brushing poly is very slow even strokes like 1 inch a second, with a brush that isn't soaking in finish because runs will form. If your brushing and a bubble forms on the finish you need a way to pop it, they don't pop on their own. I never figured that out other than trying to empty the brush and doing very light slow swipes to make sure i didn't leave any other bubbles behind, which worked about 50% of the time the other 50% it caused more bubbles. This leads to stirring the finish you need to stir slowly so you don't put bubbles in the can. Shaking is a HUGE no no for the poly. Does this sound complicated? It should brushing poly sucks, why i switched to wiping poly. My suggestion is to sand back your finish. If the bubbles are from application you shouldn't have to go back to bare wood only enough to remove the defect. Second I'd consider diluting the finish or look into the home made wiping poly. I never bothered making my own homemade wiping poly (google has good results). I instead went out and purchased it because I'd rather spend more time doing wood working then playing chemist. For wiping poly I apply it with a clean lint free piece of cotton t-shirt or specifically bought cotton rags. I've even started to use the Scott shop towels for 2nd coats, on the 1st coat the wood tears the paper towel up. When applying make sure to have a dry cloth/towel handy to grab any drips or runs on edges or vertical faces. It's easier to remove excess when the finish will still self level than trying to sand it away later, it never really sands away as nicely. Always sand between coats. I like to use 320 or finer. My latest choice has been 400 grit and I've started to use my random orbit sander on speed 2 of 6. I like this because the vac pulls the dust away so there is leas to clean up. sanding should be fairly quick, the goal isn't to remove finish but to hack off the dust numbs or remove small defects like a tiny ridge ect. If the surface isn't smooth that should be addressed at the wood level not the finish level. Wiping poly needs more coats for heavily touched surfaces i go 4-5. Other surfaces get 3, this is open to preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadedj Posted September 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 Thanks for the advise Chestunt, that helps a lot. Few questions though: Sand between ploy coats? I though that was a no-no; are you supposed to sand between stain coats too? And did when you say, "sand back your finish" - that pertains to the poly coat I'm assuming. Is that right? Also, does it make a difference that even though I let it dry for at least 2-4 days, there are areas in the stain where it still looks wet (kinda sticky to the touch too)? Why doesn't it dry? Do you have to wait 7+ days for oil-based stain to completely dry? Maybe I jumped the gun in adding the poly coat. Lastly, if the other spots on the leg look OK, is it fine to refinish just the areas with bubbles that I've "cleaned up" or do I have to do the entire leg again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 2 hours ago, jadedj said: Thanks for the advise Chestunt, that helps a lot. Few questions though: Sand between ploy coats? I though that was a no-no; are you supposed to sand between stain coats too? Sand between coats of poly not stain. It says on the minwax cans i use you don't have to if you recoat before 4 hours otherwise wait 24 hours and sand and recoat. And did when you say, "sand back your finish" - that pertains to the poly coat I'm assuming. Is that right? Yes Also, does it make a difference that even though I let it dry for at least 2-4 days, there are areas in the stain where it still looks wet (kinda sticky to the touch too)? Why doesn't it dry? Do you have to wait 7+ days for oil-based stain to completely dry? Maybe I jumped the gun in adding the poly coat. So not sure how you applied the stain but i never allow it to pool and use the wipe on wipe off method. If it still feels tacky or wet after that long put a fan on it because it shouldn't. If it feels wet at all it will effect the poly on top of it. Lastly, if the other spots on the leg look OK, is it fine to refinish just the areas with bubbles that I've "cleaned up" or do I have to do the entire leg again? I suggest lightly scuffing the places that look ok and have an uniform coat over the entire piece. You only need to scuff the surface to help for adhesion if there are no defects. I suggest a uniform coat because i tried the spot fix and had poor results with a very obvious finish line. Finish has a thickness and if you stop in the middle of a flat area you'll see the line of thickness change. See red above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadedj Posted October 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 Legs seem to be OK, but now the table top is acting up. I've restripped it AGAIN and even after sanding it back, restaining and poly, I get white spots. Here are some pics of what it looks like with no stain or poly. And below it are the legs - which I've been able to fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve B Anderson Posted October 19, 2018 Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 I’m not an expert at finishing but from my experience the white spots are from either moisture or the underlying finish still evaporating off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac Posted October 19, 2018 Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, Steve B Anderson said: I’m not an expert at finishing but from my experience the white spots are from either moisture or the underlying finish still evaporating off. Yup. I think the problem is not in the poly, it is what’s underneath. What stripper did you use? Did you wash the stripper away with water? Some strippers have to neutralized. How long did it dry before staining? If there is moisture or stripper still in the wood it’s a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve B Anderson Posted October 19, 2018 Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 Usually when refinishing, the wood itself is not holding enough moisture to effect any refinishing stains or top coats. The problem is usually with the chemical stripper. After chemically and scraping the old finish off, the surfaces should be cleaned using denatured alcohol or mineral sprites. I’m not sure what the minimum wait time is but I will let it sit for a week before finish sanding and applying the finish coats. I don’t have a favorite stripper just whatever the big box store has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadedj Posted October 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 12 hours ago, Isaac said: Yup. I think the problem is not in the poly, it is what’s underneath. What stripper did you use? Did you wash the stripper away with water? Some strippers have to neutralized. How long did it dry before staining? If there is moisture or stripper still in the wood it’s a problem. I used this for stripping: https://www.google.com/search?q=wood+stripper&client=firefox-b-1-ab&source=lnms&tbm=shop&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUiO6U2JLeAhXoTN8KHVF_CmgQ_AUIDigB&biw=1534&bih=701#spd=5620507950530168119 And then followed with denatured alcohol, using steel wool to clean off what the stripper didn't. I let it dry for about 3-4 days but when I did, it was warmer and humid. Only after stripping a 2nd time did I notice those lighter spots in the wood, before staining. Maybe I need a different type of poly? Should I keep sanding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted October 19, 2018 Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 Disclaimer: I did not read all posts thoroughly on my phone. If this is veneer, you run the risk of sanding to the glue layer. If this is solid, I would sand the whole thing through the grits. If you are into glue, try a barrier coat of shellac before poly. This can help bond where you have some incompatibility issues. Honestly, with the value of the table a new container of poly is something I would consider just to limit variables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadedj Posted October 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 25 minutes ago, Tpt life said: Disclaimer: I did not read all posts thoroughly on my phone. If this is veneer, you run the risk of sanding to the glue layer. If this is solid, I would sand the whole thing through the grits. If you are into glue, try a barrier coat of shellac before poly. This can help bond where you have some incompatibility issues. Honestly, with the value of the table a new container of poly is something I would consider just to limit variables. It's a table that's at least 50 years old if not older so I don't think it's veneer. But as you can see from the pics, there are various pieces of wood very cleanly stuck together so perhaps the different wood reacts differently when I add the poly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted October 19, 2018 Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 5 hours ago, jadedj said: It's a table that's at least 50 years old if not older so I don't think it's veneer. But as you can see from the pics, there are various pieces of wood very cleanly stuck together so perhaps the different wood reacts differently when I add the poly. It may not have any veneer. I am primarily looking at the last images of the top. Do not assume that 50 years old means no veneer though. Veneer as a product is much older than that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadedj Posted October 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 Ugh, so here's what it looks like after some stripper, followed by a steel brush and some denatured alcohol. Thoughts? Do I sand further? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 This is a mystery. Almost looks like a bleaching agent was at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadedj Posted October 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, drzaius said: This is a mystery. Almost looks like a bleaching agent was at work. Right?? So odd, I'm not sure what to do. Thinking about staining and poly just those spots to see what comes of it. Someone suggested trying different stains and poly combos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfish427 Posted December 25, 2020 Report Share Posted December 25, 2020 I’m curious, therefore reviving this thread... I am running into a similar problem, and am puzzled. Not much to find on the web. i made about 20 coasters today. Two have this white in the finish. The others do not. All were made and finished in the exact same way at the exact same time. First coat was lacquer, all following coats oil based poly, everything was sprayed, all at the same time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfish427 Posted December 25, 2020 Report Share Posted December 25, 2020 Here are some photos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted December 25, 2020 Report Share Posted December 25, 2020 Wierd. Some kind of surface contamination? What were temperature and humidity conditions at the time? It kinda looks like a moisture issue. Maybe things were so close to a threshold so only some spots were affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted December 25, 2020 Report Share Posted December 25, 2020 From your last pic, it looks like that there are four pieces from the same wood? The two with the spots are definitely the same . Appears to be purple heart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted December 25, 2020 Report Share Posted December 25, 2020 Search other threads. I am thinking a heat gun or hair dryer worked for someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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