Adhesive for Cedar

[Panhandler]

Planning a garden style bench of cedar (don't know whether red, white, etc, whatever I can find).  Horizontal and vertical slats, arms, m&t joints, lots of right angle joints.  I've not yet built furniture of cedar and have read of a need to wash mating surfaces with acetone immediately before gluing up.  True?  I rarely use screws or nails, but have read cedar is too soft for good screw pressure as well as being easily compressed.  Wondering how this compressibility might be reflected in minimum size of pieces joined?  Is there a rule of thumb re depth of mortices for adequate strength and glue area with this wood?  Does cedar like dowels, such as Miller dowels, or is it to soft/compressible for those?  Lastly, the best choice of adhesive.  I've built a very similar bench of redwood and used Gorilla glue.  It has a few  drawbacks but produced a rigid construction that's been watered every day along with the flowers all summer for the past few years.  I normally, and I might still, use Titebond lll, but would like to hear your comments/experience.  Many thanks for whatever input you might offer.

[Bankstick]

Acetone will take off the oils to get a glue-able surface. I used TBIII for years- it is waterproof. Love it. Other will chime in here.

[Chestnut]

Cedar is pretty porous and isn't very dense, compared to some hardwoods. I've never had issues going strait to glue and not wiping down surfaces with western red cedar and areomatic. I'd wipe down the glue area for a wood like Ipe or Bocotte ect the dense tropical hardwoods but not cedar. Though wiping it down won't hurt so if you feel the need you aren't hurting anything.

Outdoor TBIII is what I'd use or epoxy.

Dowels will work the fibers will compress but the glue should fill in those tiny gaps and strength should be decent.

[riqmar]

For a number of years, it has been my experience that Titebond I or II have been perfectly satisfactory; have never seen any need to wash with acetone [maybe when using teak but never with western red cedar or Port Orford cedar].

The technique of cutting and gluing within hours  [or a day or two]  has been standard procedure in my shop for decades.............even in retirement I still try to maintain this practice.......Rick

[Barron]

Outdoors I prefer epoxy, but Gorilla glue would be good, too.  

[drzaius]

2 hours ago, Chestnut said:

I've never had issues going strait to glue and not wiping down surfaces with western red cedar and areomatic

Me neither. 

[JerseyG1960]

I use Titebond ll to join the two-piece hollow bodies, as well as the head/body joint, on working duck decoys made from Atlantic white cedar. While some end up on someone's shelf, my own have sat in the bay for countless hours and the glue joints have never failed. I've never treated the mating surfaces before gluing.

[Coop]

47 minutes ago, JerseyG1960 said:

I use Titebond ll to join the two-piece hollow bodies, as well as the head/body joint, on working duck decoys made from Atlantic white cedar. While some end up on someone's shelf, my own have sat in the bay for countless hours and the glue joints have never failed. I've never treated the mating surfaces before gluing.

Care to post a pic of the decoys? Waterfowl, quail, dove and pheasant are my favorite game birds. I’ll trade you a Gulf Coast hunt for a Bay hunt! 

[Panhandler]

Thanks for the thoughts, might be simpler than I thought.  Life usually is.  Much appreciated.

[curlyoak]

This is a table I made a few weeks ago. It is Western Red Cedar. I used titebond 3. For outdoor and in the rain and sun I do no fine joinery. All face screwed with stainless steel screws. I enjoy fine joinery but I reserve that for stuff that lives inside...

I expect the plastic on the bottom of the legs will prevent water wicking...

On the tops, leave a small space between the boards for drainage...

[wdwerker]

Sounds like you used good practices to build it.  I like the plastic feet . 

  I have bought steel screws the same size as brass or stainless ones. Put the steel screws in to thread the hole and pull the joint closed then swap it out for the stainless ones. Definitely prevents stripping out the head of the softer stainless . Using a new & properly fitting driver bit is smart too.

[Panhandler]

 

Curlyoak:  I invariably put epoxy feet on outdoor furniture, along with a lot of General  Finishes.  I can't say my joinery is "fine", but it's as fine as I can make it, inside or out.  That's a nice table.  Thanks for your thoughts.

[curlyoak]

9 hours ago, Panhandler said:

Curlyoak:  I invariably put epoxy feet on outdoor furniture, along with a lot of General  Finishes.  I can't say my joinery is "fine", but it's as fine as I can make it, inside or out.  That's a nice table.  Thanks for your thoughts.

I'm thinking joints like mortise and tenon in the elements will not be as good as glued and screwed. More interesting and nicer to look at but I think in this case longer lasting glued and screwed. The 2 x 6 legs allows me to use longer screws. About $50 worth of stainless in that table.

Steve, I would do the same for brass screws but I find the stainless more durable than the steel. The brass is hand tighten only and after the threads have been cut by steel or stainless.

The 2 x 6 feet is the weakest part of the table. Water wicks fast on cedar. But the plastic negates that weak point. I expect this table will last many years. The cedar will become gray but still serviceable.

[drzaius]

The quality of stainless screws varies widely. I've use some that twist off like brass & some that are pretty good. Never seen stainless screws that were as good as quality steel screws though.

[wdwerker]

I remember one guy cut up a plastic cutting board to use as feet/blocks. Could be much cheaper if you have to order a strip/sheet of UHMW plastic ( ultra high molecular weight).

I used 175 brass screws in my teak "Big Green Egg " table over 20 years ago. At the time stainless was a lot more expensive. Properly sized pilot holes are a lot more important in hardwoods, but screws near the end of softwood boards also benefit by reducing cracking.  I also scraped each screw across a bar of paraffin wax . Reduces friction thus faster driving screws with no heads stripping or snapping off. 

I used some of those "ceramic coated" exterior screws on some window boxes made of redwood. Had to carefully replace them with stainless because they rusted & turned the redwood black.  30 years later the redwood is still doing fine. 

Using quality materials on outdoor projects really pays off in the long run.  Fast & cheap needs to be replaced sooner & fills up the landfills. This mentality has led us to the China/Walmart/Depot approach that's ultimately not good for us or the environment.

[curlyoak]

50 minutes ago, wdwerker said:

I remember one guy cut up a plastic cutting board to use as feet/blocks. Could be much cheaper if you have to order a strip/sheet of UHMW plastic ( ultra high molecular weight).

That is what it is. UHMW I never remember. I find many applications. It slides easy and wears like iron. I keep paraffin in the shop. Screws and   friction drawers.

I always use the materials that last. Cost more up front but I am a long term investor and cheap. And a little lazy. I hate doing it over and over. Becomes expensive and wastes my time.

I did have a small box made out of starboard. It became expendable and got cut up...

 

[Pondhockey]

Late to the party, but I built a table and bench 2 years ago from Western Red Cedar, with no acetone rub, and using TB 2 for joints; it pretty much looks and feels new.  No apparent evidence of loose joinery yet.  But it lives under a covered deck and only gets incidental moisture.

[curlyoak]

If the rain is coming out of the north my table is dry. The table has southern exposure and most of the rain comes from the southeast. This table will frequently be soaked...It will stay in the same spot even if I get a hurricane.