Dining Chairs

[Chestnut]

2 minutes ago, Bmac said:

For the curved backrest, and I know you don't plan on doing it but I had some thoughts I'd share anyway. The lamination makes the joinery much more difficult, not impossible but definitely more difficult. Cutting a curved backrest out of a solid piece with the joinery already done before cutting out the shape is a much easier approach. With that said, I think with some more fiddling with your jig you would have eventually gotten the joint right with the laminated piece. 

Yes except I'd need to waste a butt load of 10/4 cherry which i don't have and don't want to waste just to get a 1/2" thick back. My counter argument is the time saved in figuring out the joinery would be spend cleaning up band saw  marks and shaping the back rest. A 9" wide curved resaw would be very challenging in a different way. My design that I'm standing firm on is what is causing the troubles. If i yield on the design it ruins the idea I've had for the last 6 years.

Now that i know the drastic curve isn't really necessary I might still do some curve but just contain it within a 6/4 board which is what i was going to use anyway... we shall see. A very gentle curve that I'm picturing could be sent through the drum sander to make fast work of cleanup, well at least one side.

[treeslayer]

Great work Drew but I’m not gonna lie it’s making my head spin, one would be over my pay grade but more than that many would cause me to drink. IMO chairs are tough to build but you are nailing it !

[Bmac]

12 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

Yes except I'd need to waste a butt load of 10/4 cherry which i don't have and don't want to waste just to get a 1/2" thick back. My counter argument is the time saved in figuring out the joinery would be spend cleaning up band saw  marks and shaping the back rest. A 9" wide curved resaw would be very challenging in a different way. My design that I'm standing firm on is what is causing the troubles. If i yield on the design it ruins the idea I've had for the last 6 years.

Now that i know the drastic curve isn't really necessary I might still do some curve but just contain it within a 6/4 board which is what i was going to use anyway... we shall see. A very gentle curve that I'm picturing could be sent through the drum sander to make fast work of cleanup, well at least one side.

You nailed it, you waste a ton of wood doing it my way. It is something I struggle with all the time but is less of an issue for me because I mill my own wood and it's not too much of a premium for me cost wise. But I understand your concern completely.

Lessening the curve will help, I guess from your post I thought you were going to scrap the curve. Cleaning up bandsaw marks always are a chore on these sculptured pieces I do, and esp if you are doing an area that is 9" wide. 

[Chestnut]

4 hours ago, treeslayer said:

Great work Drew but I’m not gonna lie it’s making my head spin, one would be over my pay grade but more than that many would cause me to drink. IMO chairs are tough to build but you are nailing it !

It's making my head spin as well, trouble is I have to make it through these chairs or else the constant jabs from the folks on here would drive me crazy . I have been spending the better part of the last 3 months trying to figure it out. I've been doing so as I work on other projects but the difficulties with these chairs have been at the front of my mind.

[Coop]

Making one offs is tough to begin with but making four or more that have to match is gonna be a chore. No pressure! 

[Mark J]

13 hours ago, Chestnut said:

or else the constant jabs from the folks on here would drive me crazy .

Who?  Me?  

[Chestnut]

On 1/6/2020 at 4:36 PM, Bmac said:

You nailed it, you waste a ton of wood doing it my way. It is something I struggle with all the time but is less of an issue for me because I mill my own wood and it's not too much of a premium for me cost wise. But I understand your concern completely.

Lessening the curve will help, I guess from your post I thought you were going to scrap the curve. Cleaning up bandsaw marks always are a chore on these sculptured pieces I do, and esp if you are doing an area that is 9" wide. 

I've been eating dinner in the strait back prototype the last few days and while the heavy curve is more comfortable It's not really noticeably so. The difference isn't really enough to warrant the extra effort. It'd be fun to maybe do 1 or 2 of them but trying to sell that to Megan would be difficult. Everything has to be the same for her and having 2 drastically different chairs our of 6 would bother her.

If i wanted to cut out the curve instead of laminate I'd need to get 12/4 cherry (10/4 would be enough but no one carries that around here, I've looked) and I'd have to order at least $500 worth. The cost isn't the big thing really it's the availability and the waste. Even If I milled my own I'd still look for ways to efficiently use the wood.

[Chet]

3 hours ago, Chestnut said:

Everything has to be the same for her and having 2 drastically different chairs our of 6 would bother her.

What if you made two different for the "head of the table" and the opposite end.  Maybe even add arm rests or some other feature to make them stand out a little.  This is pretty common when you look at dining sets.

[Chestnut]

On 1/8/2020 at 12:21 PM, Chet said:

What if you made two different for the "head of the table" and the opposite end.  Maybe even add arm rests or some other feature to make them stand out a little.  This is pretty common when you look at dining sets.

I had thought about that. The trouble is, those are the types of things that Megan doesn't like. She would want all chairs to bet the same.

[Chestnut]

So with the prototype #3 complete I've ferreted out most of the potential issues that I think I'm going to have with the project. Step 1 was stock selection. I dug through the 6/4 stock I bought to make the chairs. For the rear legs i wanted close to rift sawn stock that had a swoop in the grain that would match the bend of the rear legs. I was able to get 8-9 of the legs with perfect grain. I don't want to be bee too picky as they are a use chair not a show chair.

I used my 1/4" thick template to outline blanks. This example is probably the worst grain that I had for the legs. Most of the other are tighter and more strait.

I cut the outside off first.

After I got the legs to this point I took them to the jointer to flatten 1 side. After I flattened the 1 side I cut each blank out of the stock.

I operated this way because i wanted the cuts to be as strait as possible between the blanks to minimize waste. Cutting 1 leg out of a 5" wide by 42" long piece of lumber is wasteful. I can nest them and get 3 pieces out of a 7" wide board. The other benefit is if the grain is running in a good direction I can get good grain and color match and preserve more of the preferable rift sawn grain.

This does create a HUGE issue. Joinery reference surfaces are non existent on 2 sides now. This is solved by marking the center point of the rails and using a routing sled to finalize the shape of the legs. I believe mar does the rear legs from blanks the way he does in the dining chair series to make it easier to maintain the joinery reference surfaces. I feel maintaining that surface is unimportant because the next steps with the legs will reestablish good joinery surfaces.

After each leg is liberated from the main stock, they are planed so the top face is made parallel to the jointed face. I planed after separating them because I had my layout lines marked. Also the wider stock was easier to control on the jointer but is less important on the planer. With the blanks planed to thickness I mounted them into my template sled for shaping.

The sled has 2 sides. The first side takes the rough blank and allows me to position it to set the first reference edge. I have a reference mark on the sled that provides me the center line for the chair side rails. This allows me to position the blank on the opposite side of the sled. On the opposite side the previously routed edge references the fence, in this case it's the block that hold the toggle clamps, and allows the blank to be shaped to exact size. For reference the sled is explained here (https://www.woodtalkonline.com/topic/30442-dining-chairs/?do=findComment&comment=401609). For this round I only managed to get 1 side of the rear legs done.

From the off cuts shown in picture #2, I was able to get at least 1 front leg and in some cases 2. Because the stock contained a lot of rift grain the front legs generally have minimal grain runout and have nice strait grain.

My waste from off of this is quite minimal as a result.

This waste will be used as well to make some turning blanks. I think I'm going to use it to experiment with some really large Celtic knots.

I'm goign to build the chairs from the back rest forward. I will join the rear legs together first. Second the front legs will be attached to the rear legs with the side rails. I will then grab dimensions for the front rail and will assemble the side rails, front rail, and front legs all at once. With the construction going this way I'll need to have the back rail and headrest rail cut out first.

I made a routing sled for the crest rails as well.

This one sucked to use a lot. Because it was so small i had a lot of catches and it scared the crap out of me too many times for my liking.

I also cut out the rear and side rails. This will rest until I need them. Then i will cut them closer to final dimensions and template route them as well. More to come here.

[Chestnut]

I've gotten to an exciting point on the chairs.

I left off with the legs half finished and some parts rough cut. I cleaned up the other side of the legs. They fit together nicely. I placed the legs in pairs trying to keep all the legs from the same board together so grain and color would match closely. I positioned the unfavorable grain towards the inside.

I wanted to start with the backs of the chair and work my way forward. I took the measurement that would space the legs apart and cut the 3 rear pieces, the headrest, the bottom back rest, and the bottom rail. I then milled the material strait and square and cut to length using a miter gauge. After using a miter gauge I find myself unable to go back to the mitersaw for critical work.

With the parts cut I was able to start laying out joinery. This will all be floating tenons with the widths dependent on how much space I have available. I marked out 2 legs with the tops and bottoms of the boards and then the center of the joinery.

I used this to cut the joinery on the first char (chair A). I then did a dry assembly so i could determine the length of the back rest.

I have deviated slightly from my original plans and have added a bottom back rest part. This allows the joinery on the back rest to be strait and square and leaves me free from trying to deal with a nasty angle that may change from chair to chair.

Then i grabbed a piece of 6/4 material and cut it in half thickness wise. I was able to plane it out to around 16mm thick. It's a bit thick but I like the stability and it allows substantial joinery. I used a template to mark the rough shape and clean up on the router table.

I used the painters tape and superglue trick here as I didn't think the time to make 2 complicated sleds was worth it.

I then took the back rest cut to shape and length and marked out some floating tenon joinery and tested it out. Everything worked out great. So i took the 2 legs and used them as a story stick to mark each leg for joinery locations and length. I first cut to length.

All 12 legs then had their joinery mortises cut.

Following that I took the back rest parts and cut the matching joinery in them.

All the mortises are 8mm thick.

The momeny I was waiting for was to do a dry assembly of the one back rest I had finished. I'd been waiting years to finally see my idea in the physical form instead of just an idea on paper.

I have to say that it was a long wait and I think I'm going to love these chairs when they are done.My goal is to have 3 chairs sweep right like the one above and to have 3 chairs sweep left. This way 2 chairs on the sides of the table will either sweep away or towards each other. This bit was the other aspect that using a flat back rest made easier. If i wanted this to work out this way I'd have had to make 2 complicated routing jigs to accomplish my goal.

I have a lot more work left. I still have a lot of back rests to cut out. Then each part needs to be cleaned up sanded rounded over and completely ready before glue up. After it's glued up planing surfaces will be a lot harder to accomplish.

[treeslayer]

Looking great Drew, attention to detail when making multiple pieces is critical and you’re nailing it sir, those are going to be awesome, I may not be so frightened of making chairs after your journal is done, very good work all around 

[wtnhighlander]

Nice work, Drew! In the syraight-on shots of the partially assembked frame, the back legs appear to bow out to the sides where the seat frame joins them. Is that really part of the shape, or just an artifact of the camera angle?

[Coop]

Looking great Nut! If you were to glue up the legs in the first pic, there would be no glue line! The “sweep” in the backs are, as others have pointed out, is a compliment in your detail to your work. Nice job bud. I bet Megan is impressed! 

[gee-dub]

I’m really digging this build. Those are going to be nice.

[pkinneb]

Very nice Drew! I love the design of the back slats

[Chestnut]

8 hours ago, treeslayer said:

Looking great Drew, attention to detail when making multiple pieces is critical and you’re nailing it sir, those are going to be awesome, I may not be so frightened of making chairs after your journal is done, very good work all around 

Getting the prototype done was the harder part now it's just batching. I'm approaching this like I'm making 6 small tables. Tables are my favorite.

 

8 hours ago, wtnhighlander said:

Nice work, Drew! In the syraight-on shots of the partially assembked frame, the back legs appear to bow out to the sides where the seat frame joins them. Is that really part of the shape, or just an artifact of the camera angle?

The back rest angles away from the camera so it's just a trick of perspective. The backs legs are parallel.

 

7 hours ago, Coop said:

I bet Megan is impressed! 

She is just sick of folding chairs... I think she's mentioned buying chairs once or twice but always changes her mind when she sees the cost for a solid cherry dining chair.

[Mark J]

Smart economics, now she'll have saved enough money to get that dog.  

[Bmac]

Really like the detail in that backrest, very cool. What you are making would be so expensive to buy. Most mass produced chairs are lacking very much in quality. Not many pieces of furniture get worked as hard as a chair. It's one thing to buy a mass produced cabinet, no one sits on it or drags it across the floor. Mass produced chairs cannot hold up to what people put them through.

[Coop]

14 hours ago, Mark J said:

Smart economics, now she'll have saved enough money to get that dog.  

What kind of dog? Did I miss it? 

[Chestnut]

10 hours ago, Bmac said:

Really like the detail in that backrest, very cool. What you are making would be so expensive to buy. Most mass produced chairs are lacking very much in quality. Not many pieces of furniture get worked as hard as a chair. It's one thing to buy a mass produced cabinet, no one sits on it or drags it across the floor. Mass produced chairs cannot hold up to what people put them through.

Nothing really. The chairs that initially gave me the design idea are $350 each in cherry. It's not a massive sum but it's expensive compared to the $450 the lumber will cost me.

[Bmac]

1 hour ago, Chestnut said:

Nothing really. The chairs that initially gave me the design idea are $350 each in cherry. It's not a massive sum but it's expensive compared to the $450 the lumber will cost me.

Well my point is a lot of chairs you buy today are not going to have the joinery you plan to use. Most mass produced chairs are just held together with dowels.

Regardless of their construction, 6 x $325 is $2000, minus your $450 investment saves a decent sum. I know it's not massive but sounds like you have an argument to add a new tool to the shop, or at least buy some more lumber!

[Chet]

5 hours ago, Bmac said:

but sounds like you have an argument to add a new tool to the shop,

Couldn't have said it better.

[Ronn W]

A like you attention to detail and the care your are taking at each step.   I like it.

[Chestnut]

I've been slowly figuring out the details that I want to include on this build as I go. The main thing that needed figuring out was how to ease the edges of the work pieces and what to do with the tops of the legs. I ended up taking one of my french curves and finding a layout I liked. I then made a template and drew on some reference lines.

This allows me to strike a line on 2 faces of the end of each leg to make the top of the leg detail. I cut it free hand on the band saw and then clean up with some sand paper. This goes quick and it's not worth trying to figure out a router template. Some hand sanding is done to soften edges.

The next big hurdle i was dealing with is how much to round over parts. Some of the parts like the top of the crest rail and the sides of the back rests I wanted to have a bit more of a round over. This will allow the thicker material to look thinner as well as softening the edges more of a part that a person will interact with more regularly. I was searching through bits online to find what I was looking for and couldn't find anything. I wanted a thumbnail type profile but smaller. I ended up finding the profile I wanted in my router bit drawer. I bought a picture frame bit a while back and the top by the bearing is exactly what I was looking for.

The profile put the curve on the top of the top rail and the sides of the back rests perfectly.

The rest of the edges are rounded over with a 1/16" radius round over bit. It's very slight but softens the edge perfectly.

In between these steps surface prep needs to be done on the back rest parts to prep for assembly. After the back is assembled getting my #4 in there to clean up surfaces would be hard. Notable the surface of the legs was not perfectly smooth off the routing template. Dust would some times cause the edge to have a slit ridge or other imperfections. This is quickly solved with a hand plane. The surfaces that receive joinery are left as is to maintain squareness. My work bench is a pile of parts, hand planes, and sanding supplies working on getting all the parts prepped for assembly.

I'm quite glad I built my workbench before starting this project. It has been an invaluable tool. To this point I've glued together 2 chair backs. They are sanded rounded and ready for the final joinery and assembly to be done.